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  #41  
Old 09.12.2011, 16:29
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

Where I work the rooms are very warm. And all our elderly have down bedding. We usually open the window at the top for 10 cm, at least to allow a little ventilation.
And many of our elderly specifically tell us to open the window a little in the night. If the rooms are heated and they have good bedding then it's never a problem.
Of course every situation is different-if someone has flu we naturally close the windows. And there's alot of difference between leaving the door or window wide open to leaving a window open for ventilation.


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I'm surprise you don't understand how an elder person being left in the cold too long can lead to pneumonia.

Sure, the cold did not "cause the pneumonia". But being left in the cold for too long (i imagine i wasn't 5-10 minutes) likely lowered her already delicate immune system even more to the point that she couldn't fight the virus/ bacteria. This could easily have been avoided by not having the window open too long in cold/wet weather.

I guess if the nurses at the retirement home thought the same as you we can see why they didn't bother to close the window.

A quick internet search gave me this which says it better than I can:
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  #42  
Old 09.12.2011, 17:13
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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But publicly saying that you are not happy about putting in as much effort as you can is simply wrong.

A fireman for instance, doesnt believe he gets paid enough to walk into a fire should not be a fireman

A police officer who does not believe he gets paid enough to appraoch a criminal in a difficult situation should not be a police officer.

You, who doesnt believe that you should give everything you have in caring for the peple that you have been made responsible for should not be a nurse.

Complaining about your wage is one thing, but saying that you are not willing to produce mre results when in charge of people is in my opinion, not on.
I disagree. Your analogies are wrong and your attitude allows employers to take advantage and pay less than a fair wage (and that's not necessarily the "going rate") by saying "oh it's a vocation thing, we can pay them less because they've good hearts".

That's BS. How would you feel if you were being paid less for the job you are doing?

That said, the OP is at liberty to go do another job.
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  #43  
Old 09.12.2011, 18:49
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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Where I work the rooms are very warm. And all our elderly have down bedding. We usually open the window at the top for 10 cm, at least to allow a little ventilation.
And many of our elderly specifically tell us to open the window a little in the night. If the rooms are heated and they have good bedding then it's never a problem.

Of course every situation is different-if someone has flu we naturally close the windows. And there's alot of difference between leaving the door or window wide open to leaving a window open for ventilation.
No one said you should NEVER open the windows. Ventilation is important.

In the case of Helm's grandmother, the home probably doesn't have the same heating system like they do in Switzerland.

Regardless, I think the issue, at the end of the day, is high potential for neglect and then this has to do with what we are talking about: Too many patients to too few carers.
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  #44  
Old 09.12.2011, 19:25
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

So certainly not the fault of the overworked and underpaid staff, is it? Of course the OP can go on to another better paid job - and all his colleagues too. And then what? Yes they are dedicated to their job, but they have to live too. That salary in Zurich is very low, is it not. Nobody has replied to my earlier question. Why is it that 73.000 is considered far too low for Zurich for one EF member- but much less considered plenty and 'put up or shut up'? Most of the staff in OAP homes here are French, because it is such a low wage to live in CH- and that is here in the sticks, not in ZH town.

My parents always insisted on having the window opened at night or when having a nap, even in the middle of winter-they would ring the bell and request for the window to be opened when staff forgot- and temperatures here get VERY cold. They hated overheated rooms even though they were very very thin in their 90s. But individual cases have nothing to do with this thread, however touching or sad they are.
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  #45  
Old 09.12.2011, 19:53
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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So certainly not the fault of the overworked and underpaid staff, is it? \
Who are you responding to?

If me: I would say it's the fault of the institution. And THAT is why there was an investigation of the institution in question. If it is the fault of a specific nurse/carer (ie, negligence on an individual level) then I would guess that would come out in the investigation.

We don't know that the place Helm's grandmother was in had low staff patient ratio. But I think that is often a big problem.

And not that it matters, but in Portugal where Helm's grandmother lived, we don't get "overheated rooms" like they do in Switzerland. Heating is often not needed. But in the cold weather you can't leave the windows open all day & night.

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That salary in Zurich is very low, is it not. Nobody has replied to my earlier question. Why is it that 73.000 is considered far too low for Zurich for one EF member- but much less considered plenty and 'put up or shut up'?
No one said it was too low a salary in Zurich for a nurse. No one looked that up in the thread you are referring too. They said it was too low for an architect considering the official statistics say that a qualified architect makes more than that. My friend in Lausanne makes that as a drafts person as her qualifications of architect are not recognized. She can't sign off on anything. Only the responsible architect can.
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  #46  
Old 09.12.2011, 19:59
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

I won't dig past posts- but if I remember rightly the reply was something like 'You'll struggle on that salary in Zurich' - I'm sure a qualified nurse is just as capable of 'struggling'. (btw I am not a nurse, never been one, and don't have any close friends or relatives who are - but I do know that being one in an OAP home is very tough).
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  #47  
Old 09.12.2011, 21:25
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

I thought that teachers were generally the lowest paid of those with tertiary qualifications. But it seems that here, nurses get even less. Certainly no chance of people in either of those professions being able to join the "Is 120,000 enough....." league. :-)
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Old 09.12.2011, 22:06
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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I won't dig past posts- but if I remember rightly the reply was something like 'You'll struggle on that salary in Zurich' - I'm sure a qualified nurse is just as capable of 'struggling'. (btw I am not a nurse, never been one, and don't have any close friends or relatives who are - but I do know that being one in an OAP home is very tough).
Right and people say they will die of starvation if they don't make over 120K.
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  #49  
Old 11.12.2011, 22:21
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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I have, in no point, mistreated nurses in my posts. I have never in my posts generalized that nurses are thieves, incompetent or evil. I understand you might feel compeled to defend a job you once did, but you really have to stop reading stuff in between the lines when there is nothing there to read.
No, but a colleague who used to work on the night shift in the aforementioned home with 2 carers for 90 residents, had to deal with a legal complaint because an old man (over 80) fell out of bed during the night. Together they both checked the man over and he seemed Ok (not in pain or any obvious injury) and put him back to bed. Following day it was discovered that he had a fractured hip and also died as a result of this some time later. Now this woman is an absolutely wonderful carer. The residents LOVE her, she works like a trojan, is highly motivated, takes on responsibility is fully trustworthy, and then she has to deal with a claim of manslaughter. The charge was only dropped when a cousin of the deceased told the rest of the family to "get a grip" and face the fact that the patient was over 80. And unfortunately, it was the carers and not the managers of the home who had the charge made against them.
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Old 11.12.2011, 22:25
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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The constant idea in the English Forum that people are out to get you, your money, your honour and your dignity makes my will to help anyone find their life in Switzerland a little bit easier cease to exist.
Came to a similar conclusion myself after about 5 months on the forum. Am not convinced you can really HELP someone over a forum anyway - just pass on snippets of information
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Old 11.12.2011, 22:28
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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I'm surprise you don't understand how an elder person being left in the cold too long can lead to pneumonia.

Sure, the cold did not "cause the pneumonia". But being left in the cold for too long (i imagine i wasn't 5-10 minutes) likely lowered her already delicate immune system even more to the point that she couldn't fight the virus/ bacteria. This could easily have been avoided by not having the window open too long in cold/wet weather.

I guess if the nurses at the retirement home thought the same as you we can see why they didn't bother to close the window.

A quick internet search gave me this which says it better than I can:
Still difficult to prove that if the window had been closed she would not have got pneumonia.
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  #52  
Old 11.12.2011, 22:54
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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I thought that teachers were generally the lowest paid of those with tertiary qualifications. But it seems that here, nurses get even less. Certainly no chance of people in either of those professions being able to join the "Is 120,000 enough....." league. :-)
Teachers in Switzerland are paid some of the highest salaries in the world...for teachers....in the secondary and primary schools...

Now, childcare workers....kindergarten teachers....they get paid a lot less!...about the same as nurses...around 5000chf per month...

Which seems excruciatingly low if you require a university degree plus ongoing upgrades of your professional training...but on the other hand, these are 'labour intensive' positions, mostly funded by the government or insurance, and generally 'not for profit'...

It seems, like everywhere else in the world, we place the least economic value on the work of caring for the very young, and the very old...

I think the irony of teaching, and nursing, is that once you reach the top of your profession, the higher level is to become a manager or administrator...which requires a completely different skills-set and job description than what you signed up for in the first place...
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  #53  
Old 12.12.2011, 09:49
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

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T
I think the irony of teaching, and nursing, is that once you reach the top of your profession, the higher level is to become a manager or administrator...which requires a completely different skills-set and job description than what you signed up for in the first place...
Yes and problem is the managers tend to have no/not much" hands on" experience and have unrealistic expectations based on cost saving and economics.
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  #54  
Old 12.12.2011, 10:15
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

If I may ask, what kind of Nurse is a DN1? I did try to google it, but no luck. Is it similar to a Registered Nurse in the US, or a Licensed Practical Nurse in the US - if you know. Do you give injections, start IV's? Are you the same as a staff nurse on a floor in a hospital?

In the US, nursing salaries are dependent on the education and experience of an individual, but also on the demand for particular skill sets and demand for a particular shift. When it was difficult to staff hospitals for weekends, I knew people in the US who made the same salary working 2 12 hour shifts weekend nights as someone else who worked 40 hours during the week. Of course when there are enough people working weekend nights, then salaries and hours can be adjusted.

I have a lot of respect for nurses - they are responsible for the continuity of care for patients - and in hospitals - they are the primary drivers of patient satisfaction. The level of satisfaction with a patient's hospital experience if very often directly related to the patient's perception of the nursing care. And, having enough nursing staff is important to ensure patient safety.
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Old 12.12.2011, 10:55
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Re: Wages as Qualified Nurse!

Before they started the DN1 and DN11, nurses were either AKP (general nurses) or Kinderkrankenschwester (child nurse). I believe DN1 was a 3 year program and DN11 a 4 year program. DN1 was more aimed at nurses with intentions to work in geriatrics although I do believe if there was a lack of DN11 nurses, they were able to take positions in the hospitals too. DN11's were able to choose where they would like to work- including with children. DN1's learned all the skills that AKP's learned. It has changed again since then- I don't think the term "Krankenschwester" is even used anymore.
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