Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 26.01.2012, 13:47
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,271
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 329 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Ive realized now that im here in Switzerland and Germany that swiss is out of the option, IT (as it says above), is NOT hwat it use to be here and you can more money as a taxi driver or a waitress. After traveling around for a day or two I have come to the conclusion that it would be a far better idea to get a job somewhere in frankfurt or berlin to accomplish my objective of getting closer to my girlfriend for the next few years... Such a shame that they are outsourcing but I think that in due time that will flip around when they realize how fast and difficult problems can arrise with cloud systems and no on-sight customer support, hardware failures are always time consuming.
Wow, its so terrible the salaries there in Switzerland? The worst salary that i saw was 50k at year... and that leaves you 4166 Fr at month... decent apartment cost around 500, 600 Fr...
At least thats what i saw in the internet, im not living there yet...
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 26.01.2012, 13:55
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,514
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Wow, its so terrible the salaries there in Switzerland? The worst salary that i saw was 50k at year... and that leaves you 4166 Fr at month... decent apartment cost around 500, 600 Fr...
At least thats what i saw in the internet, im not living there yet...
500 CHF an appartment? Wake up and smell the coffee.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:10
gva
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Wow, its so terrible the salaries there in Switzerland? The worst salary that i saw was 50k at year... and that leaves you 4166 Fr at month... decent apartment cost around 500, 600 Fr...
At least thats what i saw in the internet, im not living there yet...
Double that for the apartment. Remove social contributions + taxes + health insurance. Add a 50-100% factor for price of living overhead compared to Germany. With 50K CHF a year, you don't get anywhere. In EF all know that you need at least 120K CHF to survive decently
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:13
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: aargau
Posts: 50
Groaned at 14 Times in 6 Posts
Thanked 35 Times in 15 Posts
alt-f4 is considered a nuisancealt-f4 is considered a nuisancealt-f4 is considered a nuisance
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Wow, its so terrible the salaries there in Switzerland? The worst salary that i saw was 50k at year... and that leaves you 4166 Fr at month...
For a qualified IT worker, with experience, you can expect double that, give or take. But with many of the big employers enforcing hiring freezes it is inevitable that unscrupulous employers, or even cash-strapped recruitment agencies, are going to try to exploit the situation.

Consider this: If you were to live in Zurich and required a college degree in order to obtain professional employment at 50k per year there is no possible way you could ever pay off your student debt. Maybe a college grad might take it on for a year in order to gain experience, but I've recently seen ads for such rates, and lower, that claim to require minimum six-years experience, in addition to expensive-to-obtain professional certificates. But there are sharks everywhere, looking to make a quick buck by exploiting others, and Switzerland is by no means immune.

Ultimately, the only people they will hire for that money will either be incompetent or uncaring. The end result, if the company can stay in business with a such a poor hiring policy, is that it will cost them more in the long run and they will have to hire an external consultant to come in and fix up the mess.

That's where people such as you and I come in.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:17
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ZURICH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 32 Times in 22 Posts
JamiSteven has earned some respectJamiSteven has earned some respect
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Wow, its so terrible the salaries there in Switzerland? The worst salary that i saw was 50k at year... and that leaves you 4166 Fr at month... decent apartment cost around 500, 600 Fr...
At least thats what i saw in the internet, im not living there yet...
Martin, believe me thats what I thought prior to getting here. If there is one priceless piece of advice I can give you it is DO NOT take anything on the internet seriously as everything I have read from people "living here" is absolutely 100% incorrect, it might have been true five years ago but there have been many many things that have changed since then, especially employment and especially if you are working in IT.

The numbers you have listed are way way off, dont learn the hard way!
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:19
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,271
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 329 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Double that for the apartment. Remove social contributions + taxes + health insurance. Add a 50-100% factor for price of living overhead compared to Germany. With 50K CHF a year, you don't get anywhere. In EF all know that you need at least 120K CHF to survive decently
Hahahaha anyway, it cant be worse than here... here i earn 19k (not Fr, which is almost like 1k Fr) at month, and for the rent 10k, for food 4k, for the transport 1k (wich is a lie...), +cellphone bill, + water, + electricity, + other taxes...

So, it cant be worse, believe me, ah, and off course, everything (and i mean EVERYTHING) is double price here because of the taxes that this country put to all the things that are imported (from 50 - 60% more than the original price), and to this, off course, we have to add the price that the seller puts to it...

In resume, we dont earn much and everything is at the same price almost as there, a little bit more in some cases, like the car... an Audi A3 from the year 2000 with 200.000km cost around 20.000 Fr... So, it cant be worse than here...


Last edited by martin959; 26.01.2012 at 14:43.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:25
gva
 
Posts: n/a
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Hahahaha anyway, it cant be worse than here... here i earn 19k (not Fr, which is almost like 1k Fr) at month, and for the rent 10k, for food 4k, for the transport 1k (wich is a lie...), +cellphone bill, + water, + electricity, + other taxes...

So, it cant be worse, believe me, ah, and off course, everything (and i mean EVERYTHING) is double price here because of the taxes that this country put to all the things that are imported (from 50 - 60% more than the original price), and to this, off course, we have to add the price that the seller puts to it...

In resume, we dont earn much and everything is at the same price almost as there, a little bit more in some cases, like the car... an Audi A3 from the year 2000 with 200.000km cost around 20.000 Fr... So, it cant be worse than here...
ok, ok then, you'll learn it the hard way..
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:48
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 588
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 236 Times in 146 Posts
c123 has earned some respectc123 has earned some respect
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
In EF all know that you need at least 120K CHF to survive decently
Absolutely, the EF poverty line... One day I'll climb above it, one day... Until then I'm still leading a good life here in CH, eating every other day

The OP might want to consider Munich which is a 3.5-4 hour drive I've been told (so easy for the gf or for him to travel for a weekend together). Personally I would definitely not want to go to Frankfurt (but that's just me, after 3-4 months there one Summer during university, I never want to return). As for Berlin? If I was asked to leave Zurich for a decent job there, it would be a hard decision (I love Berlin), but I think in the end I'd want to stay in Zurich a bit longer.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 26.01.2012, 14:59
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,271
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 329 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
ok, ok then, you'll learn it the hard way..
Hahahah wanna try change countries, you come here and i go there? hahaha
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:34
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,271
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 329 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
500 CHF an appartment? Wake up and smell the coffee.
That was the cost of renting it per month... just in case...
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 26.01.2012, 15:54
cst cst is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Zürich
Posts: 184
Groaned at 13 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 103 Times in 51 Posts
cst has no particular reputation at present
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
That was the cost of renting it per month... just in case...
I really doubt you will find anywhere for less than 1000CHF per month... My studio costs me 1300/mo and I think I got off lightly...
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 26.01.2012, 16:05
martin959's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: St Gallen
Posts: 1,271
Groaned at 27 Times in 18 Posts
Thanked 577 Times in 329 Posts
martin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of manymartin959 has earned the respect of many
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
I really doubt you will find anywhere for less than 1000CHF per month... My studio costs me 1300/mo and I think I got off lightly...
Ive just found a couple small appartments (that for me and my gf is more than enough) in this page... http://www.wgzimmer.ch/wgzimmer/search/mate.html
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 26.01.2012, 16:47
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Washington d.c
Posts: 37
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 15 Times in 11 Posts
hendrixman has become a little unpopularhendrixman has become a little unpopular
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

I would contact the American embassy in Bern for possible jobs.IT professionals seem to always be needed.You might not want to travel that far,but the government makes a move like that a whole lot easier.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank hendrixman for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 22.10.2012, 03:00
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: ZURICH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 7 Times in 5 Posts
Thanked 32 Times in 22 Posts
JamiSteven has earned some respectJamiSteven has earned some respect
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

UPDATE:

I have since been to the *German consulate in Miami (where im from Originally) for an appointment to get various amounts of information related to moving there, working there, and possibly getting married there.. My girlfriend is swiss/german (Dad is German, Mother is Swiss). She was born in Switzerland but now lives on the border of Germany and goes to school in Zurich. I think I may be looking for a job in Germany prior to searching in Switzerland simply because it seems a LOT easier there... Eventually after we tie the knot maybe I will continue searching in Swiss.

I am also now working in a different state for a much larger international law firm with offices in London, Tokyo, Abu Dhabi, and a handful of offices states in California, DC, and NYC. I am hoping that my experience gained with working at a company this large will help me obtain a position in Europe somewhere...

I hear the majority of the positions are being outsourced to India but then again I have had quite a few people tell me that it is not on such a high scale as everyone has said it it.

Me and my gal have been together for close to two years now, and over a year of that has been apart with her living in Zurich.. She was here with me for five weeks just three months ago and the plan is still on for me to move there, any advice/guidance/information whether it be good or bad is still very much appreciated.
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 22.10.2012, 03:13
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: na
Posts: 11,248
Groaned at 37 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 26,732 Times in 8,253 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

JamiSteven, this article in the Tagi should be something of a cautionary tale for anyone looking for work in IT in Switzerland:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/16803004

Hope it works out for you...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 22.10.2012, 06:18
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
JamiSteven, this article in the Tagi should be something of a cautionary tale for anyone looking for work in IT in Switzerland:

http://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/wirtscha...story/16803004

Hope it works out for you...
From all Swiss newspapers is Tagesanzeiger the best... but from time to time do they have a real disappointing article in it, this one being a perfect example. Some unnamed, grumpy Swiss IT guy explains that he has seen more and more Indians coming and working in IT in Zurich. Immediate conclusion: There are no jobs, no future for Swiss IT and the pay must be terrible... I really think this journalists has not asked the right questions and the article looks like a "ooops, we have to fill a page and only have two hours to go" sort of job. It's so vague that I do not believe that guy necessarily has to exist at all... the description fits on any Swiss over 40 working in IT.

From my personal experience: Indians are not different from any other nationality (Shock, horror!). You will always get what you pay for - there are cheap IT people and there are good IT people completely regardless of their nationality. Choose one. The guy that is smart enough to write complex applications but too stupid to realize that he is underpaid does not exist. Maybe you can trick some to come over here for a too low pay because it is the first time they go abroad and don't know how to benchmark salaries - But what you get then is an employee that is totally unmotivated after he finds out within his first weeks and then spends his time trying to change jobs. Not a smart way to cut costs...

There are plenty of "IT Indians" on EF and I am sure they agree. There are some caught in terrible subcontracting situations but the ones that make the cut manage to either find a fair deal in Switzerland or a well paid job back home.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #37  
Old 22.10.2012, 11:43
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: na
Posts: 11,248
Groaned at 37 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 26,732 Times in 8,253 Posts
meloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond reputemeloncollie has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Treverus, the thing that stood out for me most in that article was not people being brought in - as that is exactly what why all of us expat are here, no matter where we come from - but rather the growing trend towards work being outsourced (off-shored, near-shored, or whatever the current biz-speak is) rather than being done here.

We expats, no matter where we come from, are here because the work has been here. The question is, how much work will continue to be done here? If the fundamental problem is that IT can no longer justify Swiss wages, the work will have to move.

So where should a job-seeking IT expat focus his efforts? Switzerland - or someplace else?
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 22.10.2012, 12:55
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Treverus, the thing that stood out for me most in that article was not people being brought in - as that is exactly what why all of us expat are here, no matter where we come from - but rather the growing trend towards work being outsourced (off-shored, near-shored, or whatever the current biz-speak is) rather than being done here.

We expats, no matter where we come from, are here because the work has been here. The question is, how much work will continue to be done here? If the fundamental problem is that IT can no longer justify Swiss wages, the work will have to move.

So where should a job-seeking IT expat focus his efforts? Switzerland - or someplace else?
I have worked for a Swiss company trying to outsource to China. The outlook to get five developers for the price of one looked very promising - but they totally failed. I for one can only blame the Swiss guys as the management thought that you can simply send some stuff to the other side of the world and the extra manpower will take care of the rest. Honest answer: the exta manpower was wasted as the Swiss in their attempt to save were not willing to invest into extra requirements engineering, project management and QM - some of the things you will need more of if your developers are on the other side of the globe, have no idea about your business and a language barrier on top of that.

(P.S> that was a hint in which areas IT people will find jobs even if the coding goes to India...)

Long story cut short: I strongly believe that a strategic long-term outsourcing can work when done right. I'd be interested to hear if anyone on this forum has been part of a successful attempt as I have so far only met people who learned their lessons, went back to internal staff "but in theory now know how it could work".

On top of that can I simply not imagine Swiss banks outsourcing real live banking systems to India or China. Banking is about trust. The competitive edge Swiss banks have is that they are usually more trusted than others. Especially by clients that are... let's say "privacy conscious"
There was enough drama and damage for Swiss banks from some certain data CDs the last years... stolen by Swiss employees. Imagine the headline "German government buys data CD from Bangalore"... the trust in Swiss banks would implode in an instance. The potential risk to outsource large parts of IT is really very high for Swiss banks, so just because a lot of newspapers lately bring those stories up does it not mean it really happens... and on a side note: China and India are by far not as cheap anymore as they once were. A decent engineer in China can make a couple of thousand CHF a month but now (contrary to US election propaganda has their currency risen some nearly 40% the last years... )

Bottom line: Don't panic.



(and always take a towel with you...)
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 22.10.2012, 14:47
glennsche's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: zurich
Posts: 303
Groaned at 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 425 Times in 139 Posts
glennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputation
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
UPDATE:

I have since been to the *German consulate in Miami (where im from Originally) for an appointment to get various amounts of information related to moving there, working there, and possibly getting married there.. My girlfriend is swiss/german (Dad is German, Mother is Swiss). She was born in Switzerland but now lives on the border of Germany and goes to school in Zurich. I think I may be looking for a job in Germany prior to searching in Switzerland simply because it seems a LOT easier there... Eventually after we tie the knot maybe I will continue searching in Swiss.

I am also now working in a different state for a much larger international law firm with offices in London, Tokyo, Abu Dhabi, and a handful of offices states in California, DC, and NYC. I am hoping that my experience gained with working at a company this large will help me obtain a position in Europe somewhere...

I hear the majority of the positions are being outsourced to India but then again I have had quite a few people tell me that it is not on such a high scale as everyone has said it it.

Me and my gal have been together for close to two years now, and over a year of that has been apart with her living in Zurich.. She was here with me for five weeks just three months ago and the plan is still on for me to move there, any advice/guidance/information whether it be good or bad is still very much appreciated.
if you have "US debt", ie, lots of CC debt or student loans, you will find the compenation in DE to be challenging. You pay 40%-ish in tax and deductions, then rent, then you send a buncha money back to the US to service your debt... wont be much.

I dont know what its like right now, but 3 years or so ago getting 80-90k Euro in Munich was "quite good" (anyone verify if this is still valid?), and that same job would be 110-130K CHF in CH, at 15% taxes.

consider:
120k pY in CH: after deductions its about 7.5k pM, or 6.5k Euro.
80k Euro in DE: after deductions is about: 4.75 Euro.

yes yes i know rents are different and cost of living in CH is out of control compared to DE, but you still earn more money in CH, so if you have to send home a lot each month, youre better off in CH than in DE because you can control your own money a bit better since it doesnt just go straight to the tax man.
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 22.10.2012, 14:48
glennsche's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: zurich
Posts: 303
Groaned at 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 425 Times in 139 Posts
glennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputationglennsche has an excellent reputation
Re: Hello From California! Anyone working in IT?

Quote:
View Post
Ive just found a couple small appartments (that for me and my gf is more than enough) in this page... http://www.wgzimmer.ch/wgzimmer/search/mate.html

those are WGs... youll have roommates.

your few posts on this thread, sir, im sorry, i dont think you have any idea what youre talking about.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hello from California bunburyes Introductions 1 25.06.2011 18:00
Hello from California!!! Swissy17 Introductions 17 01.12.2009 18:19
Hello from California cgarske Introductions 2 23.04.2009 22:57
Hello from California ch-expat Introductions 10 15.03.2009 00:27
Hello! Newbie in Lugano from California Margie Introductions 4 15.06.2008 13:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:17.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0