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  #21  
Old 23.02.2012, 00:15
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

It was deemed unconstitutional in Raab v.s U.S treasury but the Americans waive their rights every time they sign a consent form.This whole issue harkens back to Ronald Reagan and that administrations idea that employers could do whatever they want to you as long as you receive a paycheck from them.There are no workers rights here in the U.S.A once they destroyed the unions.We now have a republican presidential candidate who advocates child labor laws be eradicated.
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  #22  
Old 23.02.2012, 00:15
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

I worked in California and had to take a drug test before my first job in the pharmaceutical industry. Based on the number of people waiting to pee in a cup, drug testing is/was quite an industry. This was 12 years ago.
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Old 23.02.2012, 00:20
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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I worked in California and had to take a drug test before my first job in the pharmaceutical industry. Based on the number of people waiting to pee in a cup, drug testing is/was quite an industry. This was 12 years ago.
SO is the prison industry and thats drug related also.
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  #24  
Old 23.02.2012, 06:16
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Having worked all over the U.S., I can say that I've never been asked to take a drug test in California, which is a good thing. I think that drug testing is a violation of my personal sovereignty, and I would refuse to work for any company here that requested it. Fortunately, in my 15 years in IT no one has requested it.

This is not because I take drugs, it is because the insinuation that I do is insulting, and I wouldn't want to support a company that engages in such an invasion of privacy - nobody is getting my bodily fluids unless it is for medical reasons or I'm dating you.

I think that what people do off the clock as long as they don't hurt anyone is their own business, and I definitely think the war on drugs in the U.S. is worse than the drugs themselves. I think that "drug free workplace testing" is an extension of the war on drugs which is another reason I don't support it. I value privacy over any so-called "integrity", and if co-workers use drugs on their off time and still are able to do a great job on the clock I think there is no problem.

William S. Burroughs managed to use heroin and other opioids his entire life. Sigmund Freud was a daily habitual cocaine user in the days where it was still legal with no ill effects. Those and countless others managed to be successful and still have a "drug habit." I think it is WAY past time that the world just legalize, regulate, and tax drugs already and get rid of the stupid and childish social stigmas as well -- we'll all be better off for it.

</rant>
While i agree with you on the personal liberty front to some extent (it is illegal in most jurisdictions to do drugs, but a lot of things are illegal for which we don't get tested), it becomes a picker question when you are dealing with employees who either handle money (due to the costs associated with drug use), deal with legal issues (due to the fact that they are breaking the law) or people who require fine motor skils for their jobs (factory workers, some food service jobs).

Incest is illegal but we don't go around testing people if they slept with their siblings, so it is a fair point. I just wonder how to reconcile the fact that some jobs require drug-free employees with the non-erosion of personal liberties, which happens more often in the US than people would like to admit. For example, in the US litigation climate, it is appropriate for a drunk employee who lost his arm in a factory accident to file suit against the employer. Who wins here?

Where I disagree is that not all jobs can be performed by people under the influence of anything, Burroughs and Freud had "creative" jobs where either their drug use helped their creativity, or they could schedule their professional obligations around their drug use, OR, like many coked out-adderalled out lawyers I have known, certain drugs helped attain certain professional obligations. It isn't going to be the same case for a factory worker or a bus driver. And even if a lawyer cokes up to meet a court filing, he still has to be sober at some point to meet clients. One would hope.
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  #25  
Old 23.02.2012, 06:40
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

Background checks are also a normal part of job applications.

Would anyone consider those to be an invasion of privacy? Just wondering.
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  #26  
Old 23.02.2012, 07:51
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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It's not only a "safety" issue. It's an integrity issue.
Do you really think that someone who smokes a joint on their own time has an integrity issue?

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it becomes a picker question when you are dealing with employees who either handle money (due to the costs associated with drug use), deal with legal issues (due to the fact that they are breaking the law) or people who require fine motor skils for their jobs (factory workers, some food service jobs).
I know plenty of watchmakers and machinists here; I'd say probably 60-70% smoke weed at least semi-regularly, of those maybe half do it at least several times a week if not daily. For years and years. Without issue at all at work.

I suppose it could be viewed as a simple black and white legal issue, but I think it's a shame to single out people who smoke up from time to time. As I recall it takes about a month for one to piss clear. There are numerous legally prescribed drugs (especially in the U.S.) that one can take and be legal at work that will have a real effect on performance as opposed to someone who smoked up over the weekend.

Whatever. I don't do any drugs harder than aspirin, and work for myself . The employers that employ the above mentioned folks I know seem to know better than test- they'd lose a good portion of their workforce and some of the best at their jobs at that.
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  #27  
Old 23.02.2012, 08:16
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Background checks are also a normal part of job applications.

Would anyone consider those to be an invasion of privacy? Just wondering.
It depends, if I apply for a job as a kiddy-herder in Kindergarten I would expect a background check, I could have been convicted for selling children into slavery down the mines, infact I would want one and have the negative result mentioned on my CV.
However being the pixel-pusher and PhotoShop god that I am I would take a background check as cheek.
There you go, pure poetry.
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  #28  
Old 23.02.2012, 08:20
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Background checks are also a normal part of job applications.

Would anyone consider those to be an invasion of privacy? Just wondering.
No, I don't consider criminal background checks to be a problem. Typically, you should have a certain amount of education and experience in order to do the job, and the employer should be able to check up on this. Similarly, if you have been convicted of a violent crime, fraud, etc. where other people have been hurt by your actions, your future employer should know, that is only fair.

Contrast this with a drug test, which checks for behavior by consenting adults behind closed doors which ideally should affect no one at all, and this becomes a major privacy issue. If drug use starts to lead to erratic behavior or performance problems in the workplace, then the behavior should be punished up to and including termination, but before then that is a private matter for adults.

Drugs really should be treated the same as alcohol. Expecting sobriety on the clock is rational and there is nothing wrong with it. Legislating and snooping on private behavior off the clock is wrong. Imagine an employer screening for alcohol use in hair samples. "Sorry Mr. Dethbunny, we see you appear to be drinking copious amounts of Scotch on the weekends -- we're afraid we can't hire you." Now apply this same mentality to the engineer that might smoke cannabis on the weekends. Ridiculous, right?
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  #29  
Old 23.02.2012, 08:37
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Fortunately, in my 15 years in IT no one has requested it.
Cause working in IT, you could not afford the good stuff anyway and if you could would you rather spend it on some electronic gadgets instead...

To bring back the famous research: Every day on normal week days are 21000 lines of cocaine consumed in the city of Zurich alone. (http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...okain-gesnifft)

Introducing drug tests as a requirement for investment banker would hit the Swiss banking sector worse than giving up the banking secret to the US tax guys...
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  #30  
Old 23.02.2012, 08:46
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Cause working in IT, you could not afford the good stuff anyway and if you could would you rather spend it on some electronic gadgets instead...

To bring back the famous research: Every day on normal week days are 21000 lines of cocaine consumed in the city of Zurich alone. (http://www.tagesschau.sf.tv/Nachrich...okain-gesnifft)

Introducing drug tests as a requirement for investment banker would hit the Swiss banking sector worse than giving up the banking secret to the US tax guys...
Hmm! Just how long is a line?
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  #31  
Old 23.02.2012, 11:23
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Do you really think that someone who smokes a joint on their own time has an integrity issue?



I know plenty of watchmakers and machinists here; I'd say probably 60-70% smoke weed at least semi-regularly, of those maybe half do it at least several times a week if not daily. For years and years. Without issue at all at work.

I suppose it could be viewed as a simple black and white legal issue, but I think it's a shame to single out people who smoke up from time to time. As I recall it takes about a month for one to piss clear. There are numerous legally prescribed drugs (especially in the U.S.) that one can take and be legal at work that will have a real effect on performance as opposed to someone who smoked up over the weekend.

Whatever. I don't do any drugs harder than aspirin, and work for myself . The employers that employ the above mentioned folks I know seem to know better than test- they'd lose a good portion of their workforce and some of the best at their jobs at that.

You are completely right- I think America has more problems (recreational Xanax or Adderall anyone?) than someone burning the fern and those should be regulated more than they are.

A weekend joint won't mess up someone at work on Monday but I do think if someone went out and toked on their lunch break, which was more what I was alluding to, is the issue in performance-related jobs.

And it does become an integrity issue, albeit an unfair one, if smoking pot is against the law, because it means the person is breaking the law.

But like you mentioned, people cracked out daily on perfectly legal prescription drugs are going to have more of an integrity issue IRL than a weekend smoker.
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  #32  
Old 23.02.2012, 11:34
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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No, I don't consider criminal background checks to be a problem. Typically, you should have a certain amount of education and experience in order to do the job, and the employer should be able to check up on this. Similarly, if you have been convicted of a violent crime, fraud, etc. where other people have been hurt by your actions, your future employer should know, that is only fair.

Contrast this with a drug test, which checks for behavior by consenting adults behind closed doors which ideally should affect no one at all, and this becomes a major privacy issue. If drug use starts to lead to erratic behavior or performance problems in the workplace, then the behavior should be punished up to and including termination, but before then that is a private matter for adults.

Drugs really should be treated the same as alcohol. Expecting sobriety on the clock is rational and there is nothing wrong with it. Legislating and snooping on private behavior off the clock is wrong. Imagine an employer screening for alcohol use in hair samples. "Sorry Mr. Dethbunny, we see you appear to be drinking copious amounts of Scotch on the weekends -- we're afraid we can't hire you." Now apply this same mentality to the engineer that might smoke cannabis on the weekends. Ridiculous, right?
Yeah, personally, I have a problem with the way marijuana is legislated in the US also, but that is another debate. I've known plenty of folks who've been model employees and toked recreationally. I've also known plenty of borderline alcoholics who have been model employees. Anyway, I was never happy about being tested, but it didn't bother me that much, I guess - not enough for me to forgo the salary.

I was just wondering, because usually a credit check can be included in a background check, and this could also be seen as checking up on private behavior. I mean, can a guy who racks up a ton of personal debt be trusted to handle money matters for a company too? Just playing devil's advocate.
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  #33  
Old 23.02.2012, 11:36
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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You are completely right- I think America has more problems (recreational Xanax or Adderall anyone?) than someone burning the fern and those should be regulated more than they are.

A weekend joint won't mess up someone at work on Monday but I do think if someone went out and toked on their lunch break, which was more what I was alluding to, is the issue in performance-related jobs.

And it does become an integrity issue, albeit an unfair one, if smoking pot is against the law, because it means the person is breaking the law.

But like you mentioned, people cracked out daily on perfectly legal prescription drugs are going to have more of an integrity issue IRL than a weekend smoker.
I was completely shocked at just how this drug is abused by workaholics in the US. I'd wager that over half of my wife's coworkers were on this stuff, and obtaining it illegally.
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  #34  
Old 24.02.2012, 11:36
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

I would be a big fan of eliminating all drug testing, and instead spending all that money on intelligence testing. most of the dumbest people I come across in the workplace every day are straighter than an arrow.
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  #35  
Old 24.02.2012, 12:58
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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most companies in the US have tested for at least the last 20 years. typically just a piss test, though my current employer took full hair and blood samples. in fact, maybe I should blame them for my male-pattern baldness.



that said, I do not believe we test new hires here in Europe. not because we don't want to, but most European countries (Switzerland included though not to the same extent as Germany or the Netherlands) are very employee-friendly and the data privacy issues on this side of the pond are quite tricky.
You are fully within your rights to refuse, it is a breach of your human rights.
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Old 24.02.2012, 13:21
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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I was completely shocked at just how this drug is abused by workaholics in the US. I'd wager that over half of my wife's coworkers were on this stuff, and obtaining it illegally.
My expousre to American's of late, in a working and personal capacity, has surprised me on this front.

They seem to be inclined to take a pill for all sorts. Not of the mainstream illegal kind, medicinal. I know we all take pills at time for pain relief or what not, but my point being it seems a bit more of a culture thing, theres a pill that can solve anything.

I believe it is in part because of the marketing in the US and how there are commericals for this kind of stuff all the time, which you dont see in the UK for example
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Old 08.03.2019, 21:37
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

You are absolutely right, detox drinks even in states where marijuana is legal. Some company still drug test or it should be mandatory I am not against that. This is where detox drinks come in. Detox drinks work by flushing your system out and essentially diluting your urine.
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Old 09.03.2019, 13:44
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

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Background checks are also a normal part of job applications.

Would anyone consider those to be an invasion of privacy? Just wondering.
There are different jobs and different background checks.

When I apply to work as a programmer I don’t want my credit and consumer records to be checked. This is what I was asked to give my consent to for the last offer (I have turned it down).

Never was asked to do a drug test, probably wouldn’t agree to it either.
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Old 10.03.2019, 10:12
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Re: Drug testing for new employees

The White House staff. In my opinion.

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Who wants to work with someone who "cherry picks" what laws and policies to follow?
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