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  #41  
Old 14.05.2018, 15:03
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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So all out-of-hours work is accounted for and compensated? What about evening presentations and suchlike - aren't they just considered "part of the job"? And preparation for these kinds of things happens in your own time, oder?
Whom are you talking to?

If time is recorded then all you mentioned above is recorded as well.

If time is not recorded (as in all my jobs apart from the last one I mentioned) yep, it's all part of the job.
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Old 14.05.2018, 15:10
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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The question is, though: is your experience typical or are you unusually blessed/lucky/skillful to have a job which ends when you leave the premises?
It is an attitude. A healthy one and one the bosses in the end appreciate more than the always available employee. One I had to learn as well (so I understand what Mikers writes).
Sure, I'll work late if I see it necessary - but I won't be in before 10 the next day.
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Old 14.05.2018, 15:21
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

I'm just curious. I might have to switch careers soon, and my experience so far has been:

1) Crappy jobs where once you're off the premises, you're free;

2) Teaching jobs where you're expected to be on the premises for X number of hours, and all the other work has to be done around that until it's finished.

I can't help but wonder, should I get a job as an office spod, if I'll be getting weekends and evenings to myself in compensation for losing all those lovely long holiday weeks to which I've become accustomed. I have a horrible feeling that I won't...
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  #44  
Old 14.05.2018, 15:26
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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I'm just curious. I might have to switch careers soon, and my experience so far has been:

1) Crappy jobs where once you're off the premises, you're free;

2) Teaching jobs where you're expected to be on the premises for X number of hours, and all the other work has to be done around that until it's finished.

I can't help but wonder, should I get a job as an office spod, if I'll be getting weekends and evenings to myself in compensation for losing all those lovely long holiday weeks to which I've become accustomed. I have a horrible feeling that I won't...
Teaching is different. When I worked in andragogy I was quite pleased that I could do all the work apart from direct teaching at home = at my hours
And I did not have all those lovely long holidays, we offered classes all year long so it was only the regular 4 weeks.
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Old 14.05.2018, 15:33
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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Teaching is different. When I worked in andragogy I was quite pleased that I could do all the work apart from direct teaching at home = at my hours
And I did not have all those lovely long holidays, we offered classes all year long so it was only the regular 4 weeks.
Working with adults is a doddle. School teachers' holidays are compensation for spending a significant portion of their working life in the company of small savages.
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Old 14.05.2018, 17:25
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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Nobody HAS to, they choose to.

Have I worked extra hours? Sure, but that was always my decision, and I was always compensated, one year I got an extra 5 weeks of vacation!

Tom
Why are you such a contrarian? My OH works extra-hours not necessarily because he likes his job (he does, but that's neither here nor there) but because he has deadlines and their work being done or not - on time, has repercussions on another team and projects. Yes, they get bonuses for that and sometimes free days (he has weeks of holidays from last year if you can believe that), but he would prefer to come home at 6,00 p.m. to be with us. Not to mention business trips that are practically eating entire weeks from our time as a family.
Nobody really chooses that, believe me. The fact that we're financially compensated plays 0 attractiveness for the time being. His extra-crowded schedule made me give up my part-time job because it was too complicated to do even that, and my kids need some stability in their life. We're not a rich family but we're mature enough to value time more than money.
So no, not all situations are equal. People don't always choose certain things. I guess it's difficult to understand for the crowd on EF.
Btw, funnily enough - he dreams of a teaching job some day, some day, maybe. If we find a uni that accepts him, wherever that may be, we're in, baby, no questions and second thoughts. :-)
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Old 14.05.2018, 17:40
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

I have only ever worked extra hours here when I decided it necessary, and then at 100% compensation time wise, which was mainly working Saturdays for some months (thus the five extra weeks of vacation).

I've never known anyone to do this here on a normal basis.

I also have reclamed Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays while away for work, as well as travel time.

Tom
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  #48  
Old 14.05.2018, 18:36
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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Working with adults is a doddle. School teachers' holidays are compensation for spending a significant portion of their working life in the company of small savages.
If you say so.

You know 20-25 year olds are adults.

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Why are you such a contrarian?
LOL, because what you call contrarian is simply going by the law? The "Landvogt"-times have ended long before we all were even born. Somebody works, s/he gets payed or compensates the time. What on earth is there even to doubt about this?!

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My OH works extra-hours not necessarily because he likes his job (he does, but that's neither here nor there) but because he has deadlines and their work being done or not - on time, has repercussions on another team and projects. Yes, they get bonuses for that and sometimes free days (he has weeks of holidays from last year if you can believe that), but he would prefer to come home at 6,00 p.m. to be with us. Not to mention business trips that are practically eating entire weeks from our time as a family.
Nobody really chooses that, believe me. The fact that we're financially compensated plays 0 attractiveness for the time being. His extra-crowded schedule made me give up my part-time job because it was too complicated to do even that, and my kids need some stability in their life. We're not a rich family but we're mature enough to value time more than money.
So no, not all situations are equal. People don't always choose certain things. I guess it's difficult to understand for the crowd on EF.
Btw, funnily enough - he dreams of a teaching job some day, some day, maybe. If we find a uni that accepts him, wherever that may be, we're in, baby, no questions and second thoughts. :-)
A professional does not do regular overtime. S/he's lacking talent in organizing. If employees constantly have to do overtime to meet dead-lines the project-manager should be sacked, s/he obviously does not know how to organize a project and the sales-rep. you can sack as well if s/he regularly signes contracts that are not possible to fulfill without the company working over-time. Good management knows that - bad management should employ more people. Or better: Resign.

Overtime is something you do at seldom peaks or if something technical went seriously wrong. I expect upc-employees to work overtime when the internet is down. Actually, no I'm not as upc is down all the time and they know it so they should have the according amount of employees.

<<People don't always choose certain things. I guess it's difficult to understand for the crowd on EF>> naa, us peasants shouldn't even discuss this thread, should we.

Not referring to your husband or anybody specific here: I know people who work day and night feel very important. Unfortunately they are most time the weakest link, dragged along by the others.
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Old 14.05.2018, 20:25
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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I have only ever worked extra hours here when I decided it necessary, and then at 100% compensation time wise, which was mainly working Saturdays for some months (thus the five extra weeks of vacation).

I've never known anyone to do this here on a normal basis.

I also have reclamed Saturdays, Sundays, and holidays while away for work, as well as travel time.

Tom
Do you want a medal ? As has been politely explained and then rudely responded to by you, for most people extra work isn’t an optional time compensated extra.

Not all contracts are on time compensation above alloted workign hours. Here for example at my work this is the positoin up to grade 4, but at cadre and above you are free to work your own hours but must get the work done and in the recent years there is a lot more work than 42 hours.

If your going to walk into work if your fired then fine inform your employer of Swiss law and if he doesn’t like it he can fire you. For a vast majority less fortunate than yourself this option isn’t available and chucking out stories about how great your extra holidays were because you chose to work a few Saturdays doesn’t make this position any better.
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Old 14.05.2018, 20:30
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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.....Not all contracts are on time compensation above alloted workign hours. Here for example at my work this is the positoin up to grade 4, but at cadre and above you are free to work your own hours but must get the work done and in the recent years there is a lot more work than 42 hours......
Correct. But the salary is accordingly and I'm quite sure, weekly work-hours are not even mentioned in the contract.
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Old 14.05.2018, 20:32
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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A professional does not do regular overtime. S/he's lacking talent in organizing. If employees constantly have to do overtime to meet dead-lines the project-manager should be sacked, s/he obviously does not know how to organize a project and the sales-rep. you can sack as well if s/he regularly signes contracts that are not possible to fulfill without the company working over-time. Good management knows that - bad management should employ more people. Or better: Resign.

s.

I particularly like the first line: you have too much work, you ask your line manager for help, the response is to move the accountability back to yourself with the response that your not correctly prioritising your work.

Other wonderful gems are:

- keep the work life balance.
- just say no if there is too much to do.
- redelegate your responsibility
- do what’s important

The list goes on.
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Old 14.05.2018, 20:34
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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Correct. But the salary is accordingly and I'm quite sure, weekly work-hours are not even mentioned in the contract.
They are actually Curley, 41.25 not sure where this leaves it on the scale, but it’s often more than this that you end up doing.
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Old 14.05.2018, 20:51
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

I always walk to work.

What are you on about?

What kind of shit-hole do you work at that you allow to abuse you in such a manner?

Tom
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Old 14.05.2018, 21:13
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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I always walk to work.

What are you on about?

What kind of shit-hole do you work at that you allow to abuse you in such a manner?

Tom
You should seriously consider a career in conservative politics, there’s definitely an understanding you have there that poor people bring the shit upon themselves.
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Old 14.05.2018, 21:40
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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Not referring to your husband or anybody specific here: I know people who work day and night feel very important. Unfortunately they are most time the weakest link, dragged along by the others.
As usual, you're talking with great conviction about people and things you don't know. Cute.

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I particularly like the first line: you have too much work, you ask your line manager for help, the response is to move the accountability back to yourself with the response that your not correctly prioritising your work.

Other wonderful gems are:

- keep the work life balance.
- just say no if there is too much to do.
- redelegate your responsibility
- do what’s important

The list goes on.
Lol, indeed. I, for one, decided to pass replying to that post. I would have regretted wasting those 5 minutes, as I regret writing that post that caused that avalanche of ignorance here. Take care, man. We're on the same page. ;-)
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Old 14.05.2018, 21:55
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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I particularly like the first line: you have too much work, you ask your line manager for help, the response is to move the accountability back to yourself with the response that your not correctly prioritising your work.

Other wonderful gems are:

- keep the work life balance.
- just say no if there is too much to do.
- redelegate your responsibility
- do what’s important

The list goes on.
My first line was about organizing. Organizing oneself is not aksing someone else for help/delegating

The work life balance thing has always been a strange term to me. So far I loved all my professions and yes, I worked a lot more than normal, expanded my jobs and enjoyed myself doing it. So I enjoyed life at all times, no matter how many hours I spent on work. But if there actually was a slow day I would organize it in a manner that I could come late or leave early. So - everybody was happy. I would never sit and wait for the hours to pass - I worked the hours necessary to get the job done.

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They are actually Curley, 41.25 not sure where this leaves it on the scale, but it’s often more than this that you end up doing.
So the highest salaries have 1.25 hours less than the average employee in their contract? LOL.

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You should seriously consider a career in conservative politics, there’s definitely an understanding you have there that poor people bring the shit upon themselves.
Okay, maybe we should settle, which jobs we are talking about. If we talk about the low salaries, life is tougher. The work hours are often strictly set, the control rigid, the behaviour of the employer often unprofessional as the employee is easily replaceable (yes, I know everybody is replaceable but some quicker others it takes longer).
The work life balance may be an important subject here if the job is dull routine.
They are better protected as well though re overtime-pay/compensation, which is important.


I went back to OP's first post. We went off track again (surprise, surprise).
The short answer would have been: 42.5 hours is legally correct. As with anything else, a company can change this to the advantage of the employee.
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Old 15.05.2018, 16:21
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

Ah, self-pressured workoholics, an endless topic, have met so many of those. Some people are quite strange - brilliant on professional side, but inside full of baseless fears, incorrect self-projections, often worrying what others will say about them etc. People who freak out on the idea of being fired, or just simply walking away for something else. I presume this is projection of some childhood ('daddy') issues, but that's my guess (certainly fits boss of my boss and also his boss at my current job). And it's so easy - if its bad, just find another job and then resign at your current hell-hole.

Or people just become slaves of their paycheck, take loans so they just so-so make it, and then need to stay at their job no matter what. You know, the usual massive mistakes that screw up one's life for a long time, and often for good.

Then there are jobs like my fiancee - doctor in biggest hospital en Suisse, standard contract for 50 hours, but often she pulls closer to 60 (plus night shifts, weekends etc.). You can't leave in the middle of some cardiac arrest episode just because your time is up. Paperwork around all this is soul-crushing and every year there is more of it. It actually takes most of the worktime of most doctors these days - there is enough doctors to cover all the patients, but they do very little of their actual work (like 7-8 hours of paperwork out of 10 per day is quite normal). Until you reach proper seniority as doctor, you are paid worse than most corporate jobs with easier life, so its far from goldmine some people think about. Compensation for overtime is a joke - ie being on call whole Sunday (ie 12 hours) gives you 25 chf (so 2 chf/hour). Maybe not bad if your life is plain empty and you would watch TV whole day anyway, but for active people this is curse.
**************
So unless you have some similar job, it all boils down to weakness - unability to say no, for whatever crappy reason you can come up with. Most excuses I ever heard for this were pretty bad.

Another data point - me, in software development. Apart from few weekends work (usually go-live in bank), I've never stayed at work for more than 8 hours. Never ever, in 3 countries, and 6 employments and 14 years was this any issue - and I had colleagues sitting next to me pulling clearly more hours for whatever reason they had. If you're a consultant, life is usually even easier (other stuff might be tougher though).
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Old 15.05.2018, 18:25
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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You should seriously consider a career in conservative politics, there’s definitely an understanding you have there that poor people bring the shit upon themselves.
I think Curley and the other guy are just winding you up. No-one in their right frame of mind would see things as narrowly as they seem to be doing.
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Old 15.05.2018, 21:16
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

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I think Curley and the other guy are just winding you up. No-one in their right frame of mind would see things as narrowly as they seem to be doing.
It’s not a wind up it’s just I very different set of views which is what EF is all about. It would be very dull if we all agreed with each other so I like tom and curleys opinions even though they are different to mine.

I wouldn’t read into it that I am myself in a position of forced work, quite the opposite. I am trusted by my employer and can work more or less when, how and wherever I want. The hours often total more than 41 or however much it is but it’s my choice. In fact the 8-hours-badge-of-honour gang are usually good news too as these are normally primarily people who are very reliable: give them a piece of work with a set of deliverables in a set timeline and they do it, it’s fairly straightforward stuff.

The biggest effort in most big companies goes into non engaged employees (or even externals) who may do 8 hours they may do 80 per week but in back th cases their output is low. This is the challenge.

My emotion though, and where I agree with curleys comments on the type of job being the most important thing, is low income workers. Here the blasé ‘more than a days work you pay me or I’m off’ does not work, as you can be easily replaced, and it’s those workers I would like to stand up for. The talented few strutting their stuff about how easy it is to get another job are in the minority in all countries then you look at employment and pay grades.
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Old 15.05.2018, 21:20
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Re: Is the standard work week here really 42.5 hours?

But really Mikers, your case is not the norm in my 30+ years of experience here.

Tom
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