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Old 19.07.2012, 21:01
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Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Hi

Is it possible to live in Switzerland (anywhere) earning 5800 CHF/month (brut), and still support wife and 3 kids (ages 4,8,10) ?

According to salarium website 5800 CHF is the minumum average for an architect with my experience etc.

So I was wondering if I could support my familly while my wife looks for a job there...

Thanks
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Old 19.07.2012, 21:04
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

hmm.... depends very much on where you live.... and even then it's a stretch.

Don't forget, you get 200.- extra child support from the state/company so that will ease the pain some what. I earn 1000.- more and around Murten that will not let me have a nonworking wife, child AND a nice home...... so going to stay in a smaller less sexy flat.... :P
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Old 19.07.2012, 21:08
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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Hi

Is it possible to live in Switzerland (anywhere) earning 5800 CHF/month (brut), and still support wife and 3 kids (ages 4,8,10) ?

According to salarium website 5800 CHF is the minumum average for an architect with my experience etc.

So I was wondering if I could support my familly while my wife looks for a job there...

Thanks
It's going to be tight. But if you can organise yourself and live frugally, you can do it. Especially if, as you say, your wife will be seeking a job, so there is a second income in sight and things will get better then.
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Old 19.07.2012, 21:18
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Ours are similar age, 12, 10, 4.

Expenses (Monthly)

Rent 2120 incl the 'heating' etc. (we struggled to get a 5.5 room apartment under 2000)
Electricity - 60 - that includes having a washing machine and dryer that runs every day, lighting, stove and computers.
Phone and ADSL - 120
Public transport - 250chf for two adults, up-front cost 150chf each for halbtax cards and also 30chf for each of the to older kids for 'family' cards.
Food and other general household expenses (some clothing, prepaid mobile vouchers, replacement of things like the toaster when it blew up).
Health insurance - basic with some supplemental - 850.
Additional cash for paying the 'gap' between franchise and insurance for doctor's appointments and incidental medications - 250chf per month (don't always use it, but it's really bad if you avoid going to the doctor because you can't afford it).

Set up costs will be high. Our apartment is virtually 100% second-hand furniture which we have 'upgraded' over time with higher quality second-hand stuff. We brought in all our kitchen basics, clothing and shoes, linen, towels, bedding, kids books and toys, and our setup cost over the first 3 months was covered with savings and basically we did one Ikea run for the absolute basics (we slept on mattresses on the floor and ate off a 50cm bar table for the first two weeks !)....

That gives absolutely no budget for anything extra for school (assuming kids will go to the local swiss school) - or holidays back home.

We were 100% car dependent in Sydney, but we have lived now for 4 years without a car and rarely miss it...

It all depends how much your 'lifestyle' matters to you, and whether your wife can land a second job, and how happy you are to put your kids into the local school system. You certainly won't have choice of schooling on that budget, and your wife would need to have a very substantial profession to off-set the cost of childcare. Childcare costs would be easily 1000 - 1500 per month, per child, if you needed full time care because both parent were working....

We live on the edge of Zurich city. I'm sure you could get cheaper rent the further you get out of town, but ultimately if you can get away without running a car, and don't have major debts, and have enough savings to get through the transition phase, and your wife is resourceful and you have a strong marriage, and can adapt to the language... those are lots of 'ifs'.

Our lifestyle definitely relies on being a dual-income family at the moment...and with two incomes we can afford to pay school/childcare fees, extras like music and sport lessons for one child who likes these things, holidays, and paying off debt...
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Old 19.07.2012, 21:39
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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Ours are similar age, 12, 10, 4.

Expenses (Monthly)

Rent 2120 incl the 'heating' etc. (we struggled to get a 5.5 room apartment under 2000)
Electricity - 60 - that includes having a washing machine and dryer that runs every day, lighting, stove and computers.
Phone and ADSL - 120
Public transport - 250chf for two adults, up-front cost 150chf each for halbtax cards and also 30chf for each of the to older kids for 'family' cards.
Food and other general household expenses (some clothing, prepaid mobile vouchers, replacement of things like the toaster when it blew up).
Health insurance - basic with some supplemental - 850.
Additional cash for paying the 'gap' between franchise and insurance for doctor's appointments and incidental medications - 250chf per month (don't always use it, but it's really bad if you avoid going to the doctor because you can't afford it).

Set up costs will be high. Our apartment is virtually 100% second-hand furniture which we have 'upgraded' over time with higher quality second-hand stuff. We brought in all our kitchen basics, clothing and shoes, linen, towels, bedding, kids books and toys, and our setup cost over the first 3 months was covered with savings and basically we did one Ikea run for the absolute basics (we slept on mattresses on the floor and ate off a 50cm bar table for the first two weeks !)....

That gives absolutely no budget for anything extra for school (assuming kids will go to the local swiss school) - or holidays back home.

We were 100% car dependent in Sydney, but we have lived now for 4 years without a car and rarely miss it...

It all depends how much your 'lifestyle' matters to you, and whether your wife can land a second job, and how happy you are to put your kids into the local school system. You certainly won't have choice of schooling on that budget, and your wife would need to have a very substantial profession to off-set the cost of childcare. Childcare costs would be easily 1000 - 1500 per month, per child, if you needed full time care because both parent were working....

We live on the edge of Zurich city. I'm sure you could get cheaper rent the further you get out of town, but ultimately if you can get away without running a car, and don't have major debts, and have enough savings to get through the transition phase, and your wife is resourceful and you have a strong marriage, and can adapt to the language... those are lots of 'ifs'.

Our lifestyle definitely relies on being a dual-income family at the moment...and with two incomes we can afford to pay school/childcare fees, extras like music and sport lessons for one child who likes these things, holidays, and paying off debt...
Thanks your post is very useful. You didn't mention the value for "Food and other general household expenses". I would like to know that since our families are the same size.
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Old 19.07.2012, 21:51
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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Hi

Is it possible to live in Switzerland (anywhere) earning 5800 CHF/month (brut), and still support wife and 3 kids (ages 4,8,10) ?

According to salarium website 5800 CHF is the minumum average for an architect with my experience etc.

So I was wondering if I could support my familly while my wife looks for a job there...

Thanks
yes! ... plus some characters to make the 10
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Old 19.07.2012, 22:00
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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yes! ... plus some characters to make the 10
Hmm... not sure if I understand you. Do you mean 10.000 CHF would be the minimum?
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Old 19.07.2012, 22:10
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

translated from www.budgetberatung.ch with google:

Budget examples for families with 3 children
These examples are based on historical experience and the Swiss average figures.
For a personal budget planning, you can contact one of our advice centers.


6,000 -. 6,500 -. 7,000. - (no 13th Monthly salary / bonus)

Fixed costs
Housing (about 1/4 of the revenue) 1,500 -. 1,600 -. 1,750. -
Taxes (depending on residence) 390 - 500 - 620 -
Health insurance (basic insurance / accident with children) 1 970th - 970 - 970 -
Hausrat-/Privathaftpflichtversicherung 40th - 40th - 40th -
Telephone / radio / TV / internet 140, - 140, - 160, -
Energy (electricity / gas) 80th - 80th - 80th -
Traveling expenses (public transport) 140 - 140 - 160 -
Newspapers / magazines / Membership 30 - 30 - 40 -
3,290 -. 3,500 -. 3,820. -

Budget
Food / Beverage 1100 -. 1,150 -. 1,150. -
Additional costs 250th - 250th - 250th -
1350 -. 1,400 -. 1,400. -
Personal expenses
Women's clothes / shoes 80th - 90th - 90th -
Money (hairdresser / leisure / culture / no smoking) 120 - 130 - 140 -
Men's clothes / shoes 80th - 90th - 90th -
Money (hairdresser / leisure / culture / no smoking) 120 - 130 - 140 -
Children's clothes / shoes 170th - 180 - 180 -
Pocket money (depending on age) 30 - 30 - 30 -
600 - 650 - 670 -

Provisions
Annual deductible (minimum) / Excess (share) 110 - 110 - 110 -
Dentist / Optician / medications 70 - 70 - 70 -
Gifts 50th - 50th - 60th -
Common Recreation / school / camp 100 - 120 - 140 -
Reserve (Minor Improvements / repairs) 120 - 140 - 160 -
450 - 490 - 540 -

Amount available (according to your personal situation)
Child care / occupational Foreign Meals /
PC / training / pets / car / Save / Holiday 310 - 460 - 570 -
6000 -. 6,500 -. 7,000. -

1 Individual premiums not taken into: a possible claim easing the budget
2 foods and beverages to young people ages 12 to 50 Francs - increase - to 100
Not included are costs for guests and alcoholic beverages
Extras = washing and cleaning agents, drug, cosmetic, chemical cleaning,
Disposal costs, postage, daily snacks, children's hairdresser
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Old 19.07.2012, 22:28
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

No, this is not enough to live properly. This is enough to survive, not more.

It means no restaurant, no holidays, no extras, no hope to ever own a property and debts if you need medical or, worse, dental care.

That being said it very much depends on your exact location and canton. Some are more generous for families (child benefits, taxes, etc), typically catholic ones.
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Old 19.07.2012, 23:32
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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Hi

Is it possible to live in Switzerland (anywhere) earning 5800 CHF/month (brut), and still support wife and 3 kids (ages 4,8,10) ?

According to salarium website 5800 CHF is the minumum average for an architect with my experience etc.

So I was wondering if I could support my familly while my wife looks for a job there...

Thanks
If you define what you mean by live? Survive, yes. Drive an SUV with a V8, buy clothes in expensive shops, order food, have a cleaning lady, pay a mistress, several smartphones on contract, eat out in a posh place -> NO WAY JOSE.

But it is a start. Your nick seems german, so for the sake of it, yes. Get out of Germany, out of EU, start building up your life here. I´d hit it
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Old 19.07.2012, 23:44
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

5800 CHF as an architect? What exactly is your experience in the field? Given you have 3 kids and the eldest 10 I'm guessing you arent a new graduate. That kind wage is extremely entry level even for architects.
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Old 19.07.2012, 23:59
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Sounds like a dumping salary then. We need an old priest and young priest to solve this.

SRSLY, 10 years EXP (if that the case) and then 5800CHF?! (Assuming)...
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Old 20.07.2012, 00:46
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Sorry, forgot to add - Food and other expenses we started out budgeting 1200 chf per month (some months I had to get our family by on 500chf for food for an entire month! - living on rice, potatoes, simple vegetables, cheapest milk and 500g maximum (cheapest mince etc) , maybe 4 times a week...

We now budget 1500chf a month and it's very comfortable.

Oh yeah, we don't drink, smoke, or eat out at restaurants. I cook a lot more complex food that I used to (Thai Curries, Indian, Mexican style) - even fish and chips! - I've learnt lots of new recipes!

When we arrived in Switzerland we had an 8 month old baby, and a 7 and 9 year old. I got a job when our third one was about 16 months, and I just finished my third year of working 70-80% (up to 120% with a massive job that I was head-hunted for) - it was extremely difficult and stressful to get things to the point I am now (work eased of, kids happy in school, finances coming out in front)... our 'insurance policy' is our parents, they are all financially able to get us out of any disaster, provided we don't make any more debt for ourselves. The pressure to have a 'safety net' would be 10 times worse if we didn't have the support of our parents. The 'grandparents' have paid for basically all our holidays with our kids for the past 4 years... they come to visit, and wherever we travel they pick up the majority of the cost. That's a lovely luxury to have.

What's your wife's expertise ? If you keep the kids in local school and she can turn her expertise to a mostly home-based, flexible work with a good income, then it could be financially very comfortable.

Personally, if you are in a bargaining position, I would really seriously try to get a very good paying job up-front. In my experience, the swiss are not particularly keen to increase your salary once you are already working, so be careful that the salary is paying high as you can up-front, and/or with a very careful agreement on salary increases.

A colleague of ours has moved from Germany, and was saying that the salary vs cost of living is about the same (30% more salary, 30% more cost of living) and the difference is the tax - German workers paying a lot more income tax than the Swiss.
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Old 20.07.2012, 00:49
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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We now budget 1500chf a month and it's very comfortable.

Oh yeah, we don't drink, smoke, or eat out at restaurants.
While I don't normally smoke, the rest of the family does, and we drink and eat meat too, but our monthly is still around CHF 1500.

Tom
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Old 20.07.2012, 00:57
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Jeez, I need some finance tips.

Your ability to survive on salary like this amazes me. Granted I have a nice'ish life from my perspective but 5.8k would just about see me through on my own never mind a whole family!

Kudos to those who manage this!
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Old 20.07.2012, 01:16
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

When we were living on single income, we had a cheaper apartment (1550 per month) .... and I'd like to point out that we're only getting ahead in the third year of having double incomes, and earning a lot more than 5800 per month... and we don't have a credit card or any sort of serious loan/mortgage. Living month to month is pretty grim... we had to make choices about seriously stretching our budget because in my first job, I was working 70% and after paying childcare and the additional costs of working like the extra travel, clothing, and I also got a cleaner once a fortnight because otherwise I'd go insane, I think I added an extra 500ch per month to our family budget - that's a lot of work and very little to show for it!

Then I swapped jobs, got much cheaper childcare, better salary, better conditions... but the first two years I worked, very little to show for it except proving that we could pull it together to be a dual income family...and I absolutely hate being a stay-at-home mum and not having a job to contribute to the household finances...
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Old 20.07.2012, 01:41
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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Sounds like a dumping salary then. We need an old priest and young priest to solve this.

SRSLY, 10 years EXP (if that the case) and then 5800CHF?! (Assuming)...
I agree. If this is the minimum salary which means someone with little experience.

If the OP speaks German I may or may not have a tip for an Architect job that someone I know may or may not be having difficulty filling. I'll ask the salary.
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Old 20.07.2012, 01:50
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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I agree. If this is the minimum salary which means someone with little experience.

If the OP speaks German I may or may not have a tip for an Architect job that someone I know may or may not be having difficulty filling. I'll ask the salary.
Can we have this in plain english?
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Old 20.07.2012, 01:59
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

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5800 CHF as an architect? What exactly is your experience in the field? Given you have 3 kids and the eldest 10 I'm guessing you arent a new graduate. That kind wage is extremely entry level even for architects.
I was looking at the worst case scenario. From what I researched the "fair" wage for me would be around 7.700 CHF. I'm an architect with 12 years experience outside Switzerland. If I can earn that it will be great but if I only get offers on the low side (5.800 CHF) I was wondering if I should accept. Everything indicates that I shouldn't, it's too low.

But most architecture jobs are in german-speking Switzerland, and I don't speak german. I speak portuguese, english, and french (basic).

I see this as a limitation and maybe I'll have trouble finding an average payed job this way...

I only want to move to Switzerland if it's to live well, not to survive. Surviving it's what I've been doing in Portugal for the last 12 years and I'm tired of it. I work nights and weekends and only to have a zero in my account by the end of the month. I don't drink or smoke. I don't have vacacions, I can't travel. I can't buy a thing. In 15 years my kids will be going through this again if we stay here and I don't want that.

Switzerland seems to be a nice country in almost everything, that's why I'm truing to "get in", although I never went there, I've been planning a trip there for the last 3 or 4 years but never could get the money to do it.

This is geting long. Just a little bit of my story, a short and soft version of it...
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Old 20.07.2012, 02:03
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Re: Is it possible to live in Switzerland earning 5800 CHF/month?

Make the move, start with this money. Save like every sane person. Work hard and show what you can(I am often offered fixed employment after having worked just a few weeks as a contractor). You will grow. Your wife can look for jobs, your situation will improve once she gets something. You seem to have spirit, thats what counts.

See it this way, at the moment, there is nothing you can loose. You seem to have zero. You seem like a guy who would risk a shitload for his family. That is respectful, but dangerous. But today, what isnt??

I think after 10 years of family you have enough experience. I would go for the offer, you will soon have a solution if you deliver a good job.

Play your card, get out of the shithole. Your children will thank you. I am not a father (yet), but I know how my father felt once he knew I left the crap behind me - today I am able to help him, no matter what.

For me, that is fatherhood and family. Helping in the worst situation, you can rely on family.

Last edited by ground; 20.07.2012 at 02:24.
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