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Old 06.09.2012, 00:03
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advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

Hello,

First of all, I am regularly searching this forum and I 've found a lot of useful informations here before, for which I 'm truly grateful. Now i have specific question, so I 've decided to ask.

I am 24 (25 next month) yrs old and working last year as a fulltime software developer here. I work for very small company as a only one IT guy, i wrote relatively (according to company size) complex application for data processing using mainly PL/SQL and python, one embedded controller using low-level programming language and i have completely rewritten our reporting engine plus some smaller issues like data analysis or administrative issues. In all of these projects, we need regular updates and new functionality. I don't have any technical leader in my company, so every single line of code is written by me independently. Before i was working full/parttime (because of being student) since age of 18, so there was some time to gain experience for this (even during studying). Also I know at least principles of how to write efficient code, many times I have to, because of amount of data to process. I feel more or less as backend guy (coding GUI and forms etc is very boring for me).

My first problem is as I have written, that I am single IT guy in company. I really miss work-related discussions from previous companies, and having somebody to at least understand what i do (here only my boss does, but he is too busy to talk, even for trying to appreciate my work). I started working on one project in my free time to offer it to company (which can generate income for sure, and was very related to our business) my boss was very interested in January this year, but now since he is very busy and cannot put any effort on it i gave up. This was my trial to provide more work and maybe generate income for second IT guy (I didn't spent any minute from paid time on this).

Second issue is my salary. I work for 4000 CHF/month. I am not very complicated person and my lifestyle is cheap comparing to my swiss colleagues and i don't need something extra high, even my boss keeps telling me, that i cannot except much more in such small company like he is running. We are not in top paid industry like finance, pharma or so, but we still have very nice income from our customers. I read here that one can get this salary for very basic full time jobs where almost no experience is needed. I was ok with this salary one year, i had no problem to pay my bills, etc.. BUT now i was offered to do on-call support from 5AM to 9PM for 10 CHF/day (!). This is making me feel underpaid too much, and I don't think I was studying and working day and night last 6 years to get 10 CHF a day for taking phone everywhere with me. This support is technically related and if there is a phone call i have to leave within 5 - 10 mins from my home to get on site on time (not office). On other hand i have to say, i can have companion car for private reasons few times per month, and all the administration which came with working in switzerland (flat searching, applying to permit etc..) was done 95% by company. I know that these are valuable bonuses, but anyway.. And if I ask for raise, I 'll not get more than 10% (even this sounds sometimes too much for my boss)

Some more info about. We are located 20 km from Zurich, I speak english (it's still not what i would like to have) and if there is a need i can handle it-related topic in german (far away from how it should be, but customers understand what i mean when they don't speak english) - I keep visiting german lessons 2 times a week. I came from EU-8, but I have B permit. I have university degree in software engineering which i have finished just this year. (because of coures planning i had time to work full time and visit/travel to uni during my normal holidays)

I found some jobs, where my profile fits i guess. But i don't know what to expect. Now i am deciding about new job search.

So my questions are: Am I expecting too much for what i do in my current work? is that 10CHF/day for on call support standart? Was somebody in similar (alone IT at work) situation? any special advice? Which should be "normal" salary for such position? Or should i definitely look for another job?

I tried salarium, it shows 5700 - 7000, according to pessimistic/optimistic configuration. Honestly i have no clue what is too much, and what it should be..

thanks for replies in advance
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Old 06.09.2012, 07:38
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

If your work permit allows you to switch employers easily:

Tell your boss the going rate for your work is not 4000CHF, and that you want a substantial raise. Tell him you want 6000CHF per month, or, reluctantly, you'll have to quit. Point out that you accepted the low salary in order to gain experience and that Jobserve.com has around 200 jobs open in Switzerland, all of which pay considerably more than he does. Wish him good luck in finding someone as good as you for 4000CHF.

If your work permit doesn't allow you to switch employers easly:

Look for another job. When you've got it, tell your boss you quit and work out your notice.
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:02
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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If your work permit allows you to switch employers easily:

Tell your boss the going rate for your work is not 4000CHF, and that you want a substantial raise. Tell him you want 6000CHF per month, or, reluctantly, you'll have to quit. Point out that you accepted the low salary in order to gain experience and that Jobserve.com has around 200 jobs open in Switzerland, all of which pay considerably more than he does. Wish him good luck in finding someone as good as you for 4000CHF.

If your work permit doesn't allow you to switch employers easly:

Look for another job. When you've got it, tell your boss you quit and work out your notice.
thanks. Yes my permit allows me to switch. My boss was asking for L, but they gave me B valid everywhere (for whatever reason). When he 'll have time to talk, I can try that 6000, 'll be fun at least. Anyway, I 'll start with applying this evening or so. And I guess, i should politely refuse that 10 CHF on call support. I 'll keep updated this thread.
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:08
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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thanks. Yes my permit allows me to switch. My boss was asking for L, but they gave me B valid everywhere (for whatever reason). When he 'll have time to talk, I can try that 6000, 'll be fun at least. Anyway, I 'll start with applying this evening or so. And I guess, i should politely refuse that 10 CHF on call support. I 'll keep updated this thread.

OK, even if this weren't Switzerland, 10 CHF a day seems way too low! Are you sure you understood correctly? Maybe he meant 10 CHF a call? (how many calls would be expected per day?) Anyways, good luck and if you feel you are underpaid, look around, see if you are and if you can get work elsewhere and ask for more money...
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:38
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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OK, even if this weren't Switzerland, 10 CHF a day seems way too low! Are you sure you understood correctly? Maybe he meant 10 CHF a call? (how many calls would be expected per day?) Anyways, good luck and if you feel you are underpaid, look around, see if you are and if you can get work elsewhere and ask for more money...
just to make it exact. For 10 CHF a day (5am - 9pm) i have to pick up a phone/check SMS if something goes wrong. Typically only business days, but sometimes it could be also on weekends. During this time i cannot drink any alcohol drinks and i have to be on site (15 mins by car from office + 5 mins to go to office by bike) within max 30 minutes - so basically left home immediately. But when something happens, i can write time to resolve it to regular time sheets. This can bring some very uncomfortable mornings. I have no problem with this at all, but i am trying to do things with maximum responsibility (not picked up phone 'll made my boss very angry), but this for 10 CHF?
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:38
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

On call support usually means a payment for being available (and contactable and sober), and payment for every call at at least normal hourly rate.
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:43
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

Everywhere I've ever worked has paid on call at least 10 times that. Then if the phone actually rings, you get paid and hourly rate on top of that.

You are being screwed, politely decline and find a new job, it sounds like you have skillz, use them elsewhere.
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:45
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

I would start looking for another job.
Even if you would get a huge salary increase, you can't take an employer serious that offers 10 CHF for 5 to 9 availability.
Get out of there!
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Old 06.09.2012, 09:56
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

There is no other way of saying this. You are being EXPLOITED.

I know a lot of people who have gone through this, and I tried highlighting it in one of my previous threads (Modern Day Slavery HERE in Switzerland!), even though not directly related.

I believe exploitation of graduates and apprentices in Switzerland is rife. They will try and milk you in every field for as little as they could possibly get away with. From an IT worker, to a 16 year old doing an apprenticeship in a restaurant.

Simply look for another Job and quit, there is no point in negotiating with your current employer, it's a waste of time.
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Old 06.09.2012, 10:43
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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There is no other way of saying this. You are being EXPLOITED.
He indeed makes very little, especially the 10 bucks / day for being available are simple insult... However... I think all IT guys should get strapped into their seats for real dump of salaries. Crisis in finance sector, nearshoring and PFZ are all in effect.

If you cannot present some really unique skills and experience you will have serious issues getting acceptable salary or contracting pay.

Last time I looked for mandate (beginning of this year) I was offered half of what was going rate several years ago, some recruiters such as Elan IT go even further and push to 300-400 CHF / a day for contractor positions, if you subtract 1/3 contracting overhead (AHV, BVG, Sick days, Holidays e.t.c.) which is included in that amount you come to 4-5 k / Month salary.

On fixed salary positions it was bad too, salaries offered for senior positions where in the ballpark of what I was making 10 years ago as a mid-level BI specialist.

You need to have your own product and business plan if you want to make decent living from IT in next decade, anything else will get worse.
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Old 06.09.2012, 11:06
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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He indeed makes very little, especially the 10 bucks / day for being available are simple insult... However... I think all IT guys should get strapped into their seats for real dump of salaries. Crisis in finance sector, nearshoring and PFZ are all in effect.
So true...

To the OP - yes, you have a raw deal, and you should leave.

However - I would caution that you do so only after you have found a better job. IT jobs are being cut and offshored all over, many companies today are unwilling or unable to pay the salaries of yesteryear. IT is the area often bearing the brunt of increasing cost pressures.

Just be aware of the changing market - and start looking for another job now.

Wishing you all the best - hope you find a better position.
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Old 06.09.2012, 12:11
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

I'd echo much of what has been said here, but would also add the following:

You're an EU-8 with a CH-B Ausweis, so essentially you can move jobs as you please and your permit should be valid for a total of five years (unlike non-EU, who have to renew their permits annually). That your employer sought only an CH-L permit for you originally, sounds suspiciously like he was trying to limit your options.

On-call support at essentially 2.50 per hour is a joke. Even if you never receive any calls, being available will mean that you cannot make any concrete plans in your free time, or drink alcohol, or travel too far, as you could at any stage have to drop everything to turn up, on site, to resolve an issue that could well have you there long after 9pm (and I've no doubt that overtime in this event has not been offered).

As to salary, 48k p.a. is very low in IT, especially if you consider that interns can often get paid not that much less than that. However there are a number of factors you should consider:
  • What are your qualifications? Such pieces of paper are very important here.
  • Your level of German; I would hazard a guess that if you can communicate fairly competently with customers, then you're likely at B1 or B2 level - C1 is considered the 'base line' for working in a German environment.
  • You're a Jack-of-all-trades, which the Swiss tend not to employ, unless it's in an environment such as yours (they need a single resource to do all the in-house IT).
  • You're based in Baden (in the canton of the white socked Swiss) which is within reasonable striking distance of Zurich, Basel and Bern (thus widening the area you can look for jobs without having to relocate).
In the current market, with limited experience and German, you will have problems finding another position. This doesn't mean that you won't, but it does mean that you should be very careful about quitting or pushing too far with your employer at present.

Additionally, having worked for a year, you are entitled to 12 months Arbeitslosengeld (unemployment insurance @70% of your salary) and in another six months you'll be eligible for 18 months Arbeitslosengeld.

Note that if you quit (without a doctors note explaining that it was for medical reasons), you'll lose about three months of this. Also once unemployed and signed up to the RAV, they'll most likely send you off on a course for three months - almost certainly German.

So if I were you, I would start looking for another job, continue with your German, begin to get up to speed on marketable IT skills but otherwise sit tight, at least for the next six months. At that point (unless you've found another job) begin to pile up the pressure for better conditions, pay and refuse any further exploitation - all they can do is fire you, which I doubt, but even if they did you'll have an income for the next 18 months and three months of free intensive German lessons.

Nonetheless, there's no harm 'passively' firing a shot across their bows even now - I say passively because being too aggressive may well lose you your job (bosses cannot afford to be blackmailed openly by an employee, unless they want all their employees to do the same).

This can be easily done in a few ways; take a morning off and then come in wearing your interview suit. If someone asks where you were, smile and say the dentist.

And ask (in writing - by email via your personal account) for a Zwischenzeugnis; this is an interim reference which an employee may ask for at any stage while employed. It will send a message that looking for another job may well be on the agenda and this may cause them to offer more.

Of course, the caveat is it may also cause them to start looking for your replacement.
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Old 06.09.2012, 12:38
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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On-call support at essentially 2.50 per hour is a joke. Even if you never receive any calls, being available will mean that you cannot make any concrete plans in your free time, or drink alcohol, or travel too far, as you could at any stage have to drop everything to turn up, on site, to resolve an issue that could well have you there long after 9pm (and I've no doubt that overtime in this event has not been offered).
What's worse, the OP wrote on call support from 5 AM to 9 PM - 16 hours! Can't imagine that...
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Old 06.09.2012, 12:40
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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What's worse, the OP wrote on call support from 5 AM to 9 PM - 16 hours! Can't imagine that...
This is rediculous... There is no polite way of declining this! Just tell them to F off!
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Old 06.09.2012, 12:48
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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What's worse, the OP wrote on call support from 5 AM to 9 PM - 16 hours! Can't imagine that...
My mistake! That is insane and while it's not really 16 hours (presuming it's on week days), it is absolutely exploitative. It may also be illegal, as it may breach maximum working hours and practice.

Personally, I would not accept something like this.
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Old 06.09.2012, 12:58
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

Eughhhhh, your job sounds awful.

Well, im sure it has benifitted you in many ways espically gaining experience (priceless) i think it may be time for you to move on.

If my employer offered me 10chf per day for the phone i would absolutely tell him to RAM IT

Honesty i dont think my employeer would be cheeky enough to ask lol

Think is, people will push you as far as you let yourself be pushed. Think you have found the line
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Old 06.09.2012, 13:29
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

There is one thing that counts more than so many other things these days and that's experience.

Working is not the same as memorizing text books for exams and I was very much surprised when I started my first job after graduating. The pay was low, long hours and I was very disappointed. I thought of my self as being a new candidate straight out of school with a diploma I knew it all and there was nothing I couldn't do and should be paid top dollars. I quickly gathered that even though I had the basis for doing my job, I was far from being an expert, something my elderly colleges were, so I just went along with it. I did eventually get promotions when I could prove that I could think outside the "textbook" box and the old student days had been shaken off.

My advise would be: Stay and gather all the experience you possibly can. Never leave a company without a specific reason before a year has past. Valid reasons are justified at interviews unless you chose to play PS3 for what-ever-time-you-didn't work.
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Old 06.09.2012, 15:44
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

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This is rediculous... There is no polite way of declining this! Just tell them to F off!
That is the polite way of declining such an insulting derisory offer.
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Old 06.09.2012, 18:21
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

My advice (10 years working as IT developer, currently with small company):

Do not tell your boss you are "going" to quit.

Do start applying for other jobs.

Do not spam your CV to every employer/agent out there. Apply to a few places. If possible, apply directly with the company who has the job (not an agent). And apply for jobs that may not be your top choice.

Why?

If you don't have much experience in searching for jobs, interviewing and/or getting offers, then you need to test the market first. Practice the application process and interviews. See what kind of demand there is and the salaries on offer.

If it goes well and you get offers, then start applying for jobs you really want.

If nothing happens, then maybe your CV is no good, or you are interviewing badly, or (worst case) there is not much demand for your skills.

If there is a problem with your CV or your interview technique, then that can be fixed and you can try again.

But it is harder to "try again" if you have spammed every employer and agency in Switzerland with a bad CV, or gotten a reputation (particularly with agencies) as someone who stuffs up interviews. Agencies will just ignore you after you stuff up a few interviews. And employers may ignore your CV if you have already sent it to them for an earlier position.

Once you get an offer(s), then give notice to quit your current job. It does not sound like your current employer could make a competitive counter offer, so it is better to bow out gracefully and on good terms instead of stuffing around.

Good Luck.
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Old 06.09.2012, 19:40
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Re: advice fo IT guy needed after working one year here

After having some experience on the field in Zürich region I can guarantee you you can safely move to another company and earn for sure 6K brutto or more per month.

So, go for it ! Also find a position in which you can grow yourself and your skills etc..

Good luck !
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