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  #21  
Old 15.09.2012, 16:37
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

I have to say here few words about topics given above.

Offshoring in eastern Europe - i came from there (Slovakia), so this 'll be region I comment (it could be very different in countries around like Poland, Hungary, and it is almost the same in Czech Republic). Yes salaries are much lower (let's say 30 - 50%), BUT because of high taxes and fact how it looks in IT sector there I think it is not worth to offshore in order to save money. Currently in capital city there are more than 500 IT positions. So if you are there you can have almost every IT job on which you point your finger (I remember interview where I was asked how can i guarantee, that I 'll not left country in next year - I answered I cannot, I am actually thinking of going away. Even after this I got that job next day). Fluctuation is vey high (especially for graduates and young people), and sooo many people are leaving the country (for example me). And next thing, lot of companies from "western world" (Swiss RE for example as a swiss company) are already there and they have to bring they development stuff from India to Slovakia (projects I have been working on are now 80% stuffed by guys from India).

regarding dev positions here: as I'm currently searching for new job I can answer this more in future. At least my list of possible jobs where I can apply has now more than 30 entries (after 2 weeks), so it's not so bad I guess. I have applied just for one, so I cannot say something very specific.

IT world is very crazy, that's true.. and it's not just question Offshore or not, but much more complex. (is IT department here where no swiss person is working offshore or not?) or it is really predictable how eastern Europe/ India/ Russia /etc.. 'll look in next 10 years? when one US company can change IT market in single city within one year?
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  #22  
Old 15.09.2012, 19:40
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

I've been in the mid to senior IT management (IT Manager, Head of IT and the like) for 11+ years. Multi-nationals, medium/small sized international companies and recently a start-up (which went bust) and let me tell you that after 100+ applications, fluent German and BA degree I got 1 interview and few chats with recruiters. I'm told for each mid to senior level role there are 20,30 up to a hundred CV from seasoned managers from my level up to CIO/CTO. It is brutal. Wages have dropped. What paid in the 160-200k now is 25-40% less.

Managed services, cloud hype and tons of unemployed and qualified from and outside EU willing to work for chump change is major contributing factor.
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  #23  
Old 15.09.2012, 22:50
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Recently, in either NZZ or Tages Anzeiger I've seen a brief article on Swiss Engineers and Architects' Association report on salaries - it was all going well and strong, with slight increases on average. So, is it that just the IT is getting finally to "normal" levels?
From my anecdotal observation: a small company can as hardly attract the foot soldiers (skilled developers) now as 2-3 years ago.
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  #24  
Old 15.09.2012, 23:08
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

Well, if any of you can do DSP assembler in various platforms for audio related stuff (Sharc, Blackfin, 563xx), please let me know.

Tom
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  #25  
Old 15.09.2012, 23:42
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

I have a smal IT concept company, i recently got quoted CHF210K for a job from a Swiss development company (when they could fit me in) they also wanted an additional CHF 38k to write up the tech specs.

I went out with my backpack for a few months checking out small to medium sized companies in India, which there are 1000s, i found one that impressed me (I always look for ones that treat their employees like humans) and got the same job gone for $12k.

I sold it as a demo for $200k, the BETA version worked so well they have not made any changes but are already asking for upgrades.

Indian IT companies are very quick to catch on to what is required by western companies, understanding them of course is a little difficult until you get used to them or employ a guy who can speak the language, but on the whole after 5 years dealing with india I have only been disappointed once, my 1st time when I was a novice.

Most of these indian companies have their own academies where they teach each of their students one language (java for example) so that they specialise in that field, keeping up to date with all new changes.

I, having pitched to a few Swiss IT guys and have found them very arrogant and not that terribly knowledgable, a 'so called impossible task' said by a Swiss mobile expert was solved in a few minutes by an ex-tea boy, myself and a few of my partners are still trying to debunk his method but it sticks, in fact it sticks so well, we are now building three apps with it.

OK we use English, but that can be easily translated by a translator who costs a lot less than a German coder.

India is building itself up to be an IT capital, if works are crap the legal system is also changing so you can have recourse for bad works.

Globalisation is here to stay, I won't pay over the odds, sometimes 10x s times over a rate I could pay for a job that does what it is supposed to do, I can always get an English partner to check the code for stability, load testing and scalability but the companies I deal with now know what to expect...

It is always surprising how much a few giant bars of co-op chocolate and incentivise an Indian team too.

So yes, wages in Switzerland for IT guys, even for the big banks or insurance companies are falling (because they are all out there too) because code is just a language and language learning has no cultural barriers.

I am, next month going to open an Indian branch so we can blow Swiss companies and the like out of the water based on quality, delivery and price.

India was ours, we gave it it's greatest attributes, I'm going back to get it's newest one...
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  #26  
Old 16.09.2012, 01:43
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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middle management get paid around 150 - 200k CHF / year.
Hi,

Can you tell me where you got this salary range from?
What area? what level of experience is required?
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  #27  
Old 16.09.2012, 02:27
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So, aren't there any senior dev people paid north of let's say 120-130k (bonus and other allowances included)? Is the upper limit for non-management in IT capped at the magic 110k-120k nowadays?
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  #28  
Old 16.09.2012, 08:38
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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So, aren't there any senior dev people paid north of let's say 120-130k (bonus and other allowances included)? Is the upper limit for non-management in IT capped at the magic 110k-120k nowadays?
Senior positions still paying above this, mid and junior level are dropping due to globalization as highlighted above.
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  #29  
Old 16.09.2012, 16:11
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In NZZ there was an article this summer entitled somehow like "Perfect Storm for Swiss Banks". Also, in the last decade the part of the financial industry in the GDP went down from 10 to 5%, while employment stayed at the same level. So probably we're witnessing the adjustment of the latter.
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  #30  
Old 16.09.2012, 16:19
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

what I'm seeing is that IT depts are becoming leaner/flatter. What I saw happening 10 years ago at a oil multi-national in US which was quite forward looking is finally coming to CH: IT depts will consist of perhaps a CIO type and couple of other managers who will actually be contract/vendor managers as all support, tech and dev, project management will be external. CH is quite behind in terms of trends and approaches in many areas including how best in class run IT. Strong frank and competition as well as crisis is forcing them to change. Some are and some SME's are still stuck in the 80's.
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  #31  
Old 16.09.2012, 17:02
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

Personally haven't had trouble finding work in IT but am not a developer, you could say more on the PM and vendor management side. Wages seem stable as well. There are core business oriented skills which are difficult to outsource, there are other skills which are easy. Development skills, IT infrastructure, Database administration etc are generally easy to outsource. These jobs are done by experienced staff for a 10th the cost. If I was 20 and I was looking for an IT career i would be avoiding development type skill sets, other than to understand the technology and manage others.

Switzerland is not the place to have a big IT workforce, too expensive. But there is a place for specialized management working on complexity.
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  #32  
Old 16.09.2012, 17:56
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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Personally haven't had trouble finding work in IT but am not a developer, you could say more on the PM and vendor management side. Wages seem stable as well. There are core business oriented skills which are difficult to outsource, there are other skills which are easy. Development skills, IT infrastructure, Database administration etc are generally easy to outsource. These jobs are done by experienced staff for a 10th the cost. If I was 20 and I was looking for an IT career i would be avoiding development type skill sets, other than to understand the technology and manage others.

Switzerland is not the place to have a big IT workforce, too expensive. But there is a place for specialized management working on complexity.
Got similar skills to you and than some and getting nothing. Perhaps we should compare notes
I'm 39 and perhaps that is too old and I shall look to retire.
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  #33  
Old 16.09.2012, 19:08
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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Got similar skills to you and than some and getting nothing. Perhaps we should compare notes
I'm 39 and perhaps that is too old and I shall look to retire.

I'm a little older than you. There are many factors why you might be having difficulties, but I don't think age is an issue.
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  #34  
Old 16.09.2012, 21:28
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

I agree with mojado, there are jobs but there have been considerable changes in the market. We are still in the middle of an offshoring fad. The cost savings that most organisations think they are making are actually deferred costs. It will be paid for later, as the “cheep” labour start demanding better living standards.
In the meantime many well-paid developer jobs are in maintaining systems written offshore. There has been a swell of IT management jobs, because someone has to manage the offshore projects, and systems support once they are delivered here in Switzerland.
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  #35  
Old 19.09.2012, 09:28
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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I have a smal IT concept company, i recently got quoted CHF210K for a job from a Swiss development company (when they could fit me in) they also wanted an additional CHF 38k to write up the tech specs.

I went out with my backpack for a few months checking out small to medium sized companies in India, which there are 1000s, i found one that impressed me (I always look for ones that treat their employees like humans) and got the same job gone for $12k.

I sold it as a demo for $200k, the BETA version worked so well they have not made any changes but are already asking for upgrades.
Well, this is really a double edged sword.

On one hand, congratulations on your business success, but on another - Swiss company probably pockets much lower profit then you do when you pay 12k and sell for 200k. Swiss companies might sound arrogant but they need to survive and pay salaries to their employees which are here.

In a nutshell you are exploiting 'pressure difference' between two regions of the world and while business is business I hope you understand that by doing so you ultimately ruin your own market and customers.

Customers pay you 200k, you send 12 to India, spend 10-20 on business expenses and pocket the rest 170k. Unless you decide to spend all those 170k quick - Swiss economy ultimately got nothing from it. Do that long enough and you'd be out of customers.
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  #36  
Old 19.09.2012, 10:52
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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Customers pay you 200k, you send 12 to India, spend 10-20 on business expenses and pocket the rest 170k. Unless you decide to spend all those 170k quick - Swiss economy ultimately got nothing from it. Do that long enough and you'd be out of customers.
Assuming your customers are in Switzerland.

The problem many companies based in Switzerland face - especially in IT - is that their customer base is global, the Swiss market accounting for only a small fraction.
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  #37  
Old 19.09.2012, 11:13
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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So, aren't there any senior dev people paid north of let's say 120-130k (bonus and other allowances included)? Is the upper limit for non-management in IT capped at the magic 110k-120k nowadays?
no, I have seen senior ABAP developers and SAP Basis guys walk away with 150k+ .. I would say doing Java in Switzerland is a mistake because it can easily be outsourced (and everybody and their grandmother gets taught Java nowadays), having a more specialised positions pays off
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  #38  
Old 19.09.2012, 11:39
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

My personal thinking is that there's not enough good local candidates to fill jobs, I got drafted in from the UK as there wasn't anyone local good enough to do the job unfortunately. I'm a tester and out of the 20+ developers I work with only one is Swiss.
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Old 19.09.2012, 12:33
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Re: Are jobs for software developers declining in Switzerland?

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Well, this is really a double edged sword.

On one hand, congratulations on your business success, but on another - Swiss company probably pockets much lower profit then you do when you pay 12k and sell for 200k. Swiss companies might sound arrogant but they need to survive and pay salaries to their employees which are here.

In a nutshell you are exploiting 'pressure difference' between two regions of the world and while business is business I hope you understand that by doing so you ultimately ruin your own market and customers.

Customers pay you 200k, you send 12 to India, spend 10-20 on business expenses and pocket the rest 170k. Unless you decide to spend all those 170k quick - Swiss economy ultimately got nothing from it. Do that long enough and you'd be out of customers.
I understand your point exactly that is why I try and keep my clients away from Switzerland, mostly because I find them difficult to understand why an English guy wants profit that they could keep for themselves and secondly I like to sell knowing that the idea or the concept I sold came from Switzerland but the parts may have been manufautured elsewhere.

I exploit my situation that is all, Switzerland is not my market just the place I operate from.
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