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  #41  
Old 21.01.2008, 10:58
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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Hi Nilsen,


Nice to know that a South African is moving or moved to Switzerland. Hi we , my husband and myself also are planning to move to Switzerland shortly. We were planning last year , but eventually we both got very good jobs in SA, and therefore decided to stay a bit.

Let me know if you are in SA or planning to move..your inputs would greatly help us...

Cheers,

Bernie
Hi Bernie,
The more South Africans the better. We are planning our move for the beginning of 2009 but are going over in April to take a look for my wife, she has never been so it is advisable that you know what you are getting yourself into.
We can start a private thread if you have any other questions.

Cheers,
Nils
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  #42  
Old 21.01.2008, 11:23
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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As a Swiss native this is really hard to take. Is that really how you think of us here? 200-250K a year is VERY special. It's great that you seem to make tons of money but it's also quite obvious to me that having too much cash has corrupted your views of things.

Your message here is an insult to me. The average income for a family here is about 70'000 Fr. a year. 90'000 is quite a bit above average and will easily allow you to have a car, go on vacation and live very decently. 95% of us here don't have much more than that. You might have to choose a normal apartment rather than an architectural master-piece but it's definitely people like you who don't blend in, rather than those who are able to live very well on an average wage.

peter
I am sorry but I fail to see where the insult can be in one's own personal opinion based on his own judgement.

I do share his view that to have an above average lifestyle in Zurich you need exactly that amount of money. And I am talking about a nice flat with a view on the lake, going to good restaurant, having a nice car and so on... Zurich is the same as London from this point of view. You have to pay a high premium to get nice things. In London you'll be fine with an average salary as long as you are happy to live in a ex-council flat, go out to mediocre restaurants and don't waste too much money on cars. Not that I am saying that these are indispensabile things and as a note I am far from that salary level. However, I am deeply disappointed that people found this offensive. Some people do like nice things and prefer to live in small towns where you get nicer things for your money. It is not a mistery that those things are widely sought after in places like Zurich and London and therefore there is a huge premium to pay for that, higher than in many other places. Nothing to be groaned about it, perhaps better to groan at some people's attitude. It's a choice. Some people are happy in ex-council flats in crime infested areas of London, others are happy with dull industrial type accomodation in Zurich suburbs but the fact is that those are not 'above average' lifestyle. And if someone wants to move to another country only if he can get an above average lifestyle is another personal choice which should not be blamed.
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  #43  
Old 21.01.2008, 11:33
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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I am sorry but I fail to see where the insult can be in one's own personal opinion based on his own judgement.

I do share his view that to have an above average lifestyle in Zurich you need exactly that amount of money. And I am talking about a nice flat with a view on the lake, going to good restaurant, having a nice car and so on... .
In my humble opinion you need far less than 200k a year to achieve that but never mind.

Maybe you care to share your calculation algorythm with us?
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  #44  
Old 21.01.2008, 12:18
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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I am sorry but I fail to see where the insult can be in one's own personal opinion based on his own judgement.

I do share his view that to have an above average lifestyle in Zurich you need exactly that amount of money.

this opinion would lead to the point that if you earn less then 500k a year...better keep out of CH. such salaries are very rare and this opinion gives a wrong impression about things. the question was not not how much do i need to have an above average lifestyle.furthermore who defines "average lifestyle"?

about no other point people exaggerate more but money and sex. so dream on, folks...
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  #45  
Old 21.01.2008, 12:39
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

This is an interesting post to see how much (and little) money that some people need to be happy.

I will put in my personal experience in that I live in Vaud (near Morges) with my boyfriend- I cannot work so we are living on one income that is 60K CHF. No kids but we have 3 dogs.
We can't afford to do a lot of things but we still manage to eat and drink well, and go out and explore this beautiful country almost every weekend!
How much money you "need to make" all depends upon what is important to you.
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  #46  
Old 21.01.2008, 13:28
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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In my humble opinion you need far less than 200k a year to achieve that but never mind.

Maybe you care to share your calculation algorythm with us?
Now please (this is not referred to your post) I have never said that you can't be happy with less than that. Money does not bring you happiness, that I believe and that is not my point.

Above average lifestyle in Zurich, easy said:

- a nice flat with a lake view in a nice area: rent 3500 CHF
- eating out once/twice a week in good restaurants(or other preferred entairtainment) - babysitting - 400-500 CHF a week for a couple . total 2000 CHF a month
- kids expenses for international schools: total 2-4000 CHF a month (? guessing on this sorry)
- food/bills: monthly total 1000 CHF
- car/car expenses 500 CHF
- general family expenses/other 2000 CHF a month
- saving for the future 1000 CHF a month
- good health insurance for family 1000 CHF a month
Approximate total 13.500-15.500 CHF a month.

You might argue that you don't need international schools for your children. Fair enough. But I was illustrating the costs with an above average lifestyle on everything.

I am not saying that this is an average lifestyle and that if you have less than that you are a loser. I am just saying that when you go above the average lifestyle the costs raise exponentially here (just as much as in London) so people might want to consider if it's worth leaving what they have in their country to come here to have a better lifestyle (note that I am talking about lifestyle, not "quality of life" which is a completely different subject).
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  #47  
Old 21.01.2008, 15:23
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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Now please (this is not referred to your post) I have never said that you can't be happy with less than that. Money does not bring you happiness, that I believe and that is not my point.

Above average lifestyle in Zurich, easy said:

- a nice flat with a lake view in a nice area: rent 3500 CHF
- eating out once/twice a week in good restaurants(or other preferred entairtainment) - babysitting - 400-500 CHF a week for a couple . total 2000 CHF a month
- kids expenses for international schools: total 2-4000 CHF a month (? guessing on this sorry)
- food/bills: monthly total 1000 CHF
- car/car expenses 500 CHF
- general family expenses/other 2000 CHF a month
- saving for the future 1000 CHF a month
- good health insurance for family 1000 CHF a month
Approximate total 13.500-15.500 CHF a month.

You might argue that you don't need international schools for your children. Fair enough. But I was illustrating the costs with an above average lifestyle on everything.

I am not saying that this is an average lifestyle and that if you have less than that you are a loser. I am just saying that when you go above the average lifestyle the costs raise exponentially here (just as much as in London) so people might want to consider if it's worth leaving what they have in their country to come here to have a better lifestyle (note that I am talking about lifestyle, not "quality of life" which is a completely different subject).
Seems like someone is being taken to the cleaners... On that kind of money one should be able to live very very well and save about 5K a month....
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  #48  
Old 21.01.2008, 15:26
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

again this was not the question.

mr. roman abramowitsch maybe has a different bill each month.
what would you tell him if he would tell you about his expenses, how average "you" are?
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  #49  
Old 21.01.2008, 15:46
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

Y'all got it wrong: the trick is to not work and have rich friends
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  #50  
Old 21.01.2008, 15:57
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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Seems like someone is being taken to the cleaners... On that kind of money one should be able to live very very well and save about 5K a month....
If you don't pay taxes (like the post above this suggest :-), being able to save 5K per months shouldn't be a problem :-) Otherwise: 13'500 / month means 3200 Fr. in taxes / month.

peter
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  #51  
Old 21.01.2008, 16:10
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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Y'all got it wrong: the trick is to not work and have rich friends
profession: son.
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  #52  
Old 21.01.2008, 16:14
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

The Talented Mr UncleMax.

dave


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Y'all got it wrong: the trick is to not work and have rich friends
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  #53  
Old 21.01.2008, 16:24
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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again this was not the question.

mr. roman abramowitsch maybe has a different bill each month.
what would you tell him if he would tell you about his expenses, how average "you" are?
Well, Abramowitch income doesn't really enter into average either.

Now if we are talking about an average lifestyle (meaning average house, average expenses, average forms of entertainment and so on) I would say that in Zurich anything from 80 to 120k (family income) can guarantee you that (I am taking as an example a couple with a small child, of course if you are single that figure goes down). 120 to 150k can give you an above average lifestyle. To have an above average lifestyle + savings on top you will need more than 150k. Those figures are calculated in mind with a family, if you are single you can deduct a good 20-30% less. I know that for Abramovich perhaps it is average to have caviar and champagne each night but that's not average. :-) In my idea average is living in an area that is not too depressed, and not too posh, going out 1-2 a week in average priced restaurants/theathers/discoteques, going on average holiday places (which is not St Moritz) and so on. Of course there is an amount of subjectivity but I trust my common sense.
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  #54  
Old 21.01.2008, 16:26
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

I find I'm much better off now that I can't buy caviar. Having said that, my 90 grand is now being spent on inhumanely-fatty duck liver
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  #55  
Old 21.01.2008, 16:29
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

Carry on like this Lob, and you will be into cheroot smoking territory. And I wouldnt wish that upon any man.

dave


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I find I'm much better off now that I can't buy caviar. Having said that, my 90 grand is now being spent on inhumanely-fatty duck liver
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  #56  
Old 22.01.2008, 00:30
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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I am sorry but I fail to see where the insult can be in one's own personal opinion based on his own judgement.

I do share his view that to have an above average lifestyle in Zurich you need exactly that amount of money. And I am talking about a nice flat with a view on the lake, going to good restaurant, having a nice car and so on... Zurich is the same as London from this point of view. You have to pay a high premium to get nice things. In London you'll be fine with an average salary as long as you are happy to live in a ex-council flat, go out to mediocre restaurants and don't waste too much money on cars. Not that I am saying that these are indispensabile things and as a note I am far from that salary level. However, I am deeply disappointed that people found this offensive. Some people do like nice things and prefer to live in small towns where you get nicer things for your money. It is not a mistery that those things are widely sought after in places like Zurich and London and therefore there is a huge premium to pay for that, higher than in many other places. Nothing to be groaned about it, perhaps better to groan at some people's attitude. It's a choice. Some people are happy in ex-council flats in crime infested areas of London, others are happy with dull industrial type accomodation in Zurich suburbs but the fact is that those are not 'above average' lifestyle. And if someone wants to move to another country only if he can get an above average lifestyle is another personal choice which should not be blamed.
Exactly my point. I do not wish to "belittle" anybody, however not everybody wants to have an average lifestyle, I could have stayed in Canada for that (it would have been even better). If you are planning to have an average house, put kids in private school and not those ethnic "day prisons" and have 2 cars, even average... It's going to cost you a lot in Switzerland.
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  #57  
Old 22.01.2008, 00:31
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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In my humble opinion you need far less than 200k a year to achieve that but never mind.

Maybe you care to share your calculation algorythm with us?
For one yes. I am calculating for a family where the spouse doesn't work.
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  #58  
Old 22.01.2008, 00:32
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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put kids in private school and not those ethnic "day prisons".
What's an 'ethnic day prison'?
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  #59  
Old 22.01.2008, 00:40
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

My calculation for what is a good Swiss salary would be

3000-5000 for housing.
1000 for a car (car leasing + fuel + insuarance.)
1500 for groceries (food + alcohol)
1000-3000 for entertainment (clubs/restaurants/clothes)
1000 for random expenses.

Min 7500 per month Max 11500 per month.

All this without counting saving money and vacations.


Of course you can stay home, watch TV, go hiking and on picnics and take the bus.

I've talked with people who thought that 5500GBP per month in London was barely enough to maintain an everage lifestyle working in a bank/company.
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  #60  
Old 22.01.2008, 00:42
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Re: 90k CHF - enough to live on?

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What's an 'ethnic day prison'?

Those schools you read in the papers, gangs of youths raping little girls and filming themselves beating up people on mobile phones, barely speaking German.
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