Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 12.12.2012, 14:26
drmom's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere in SG
Posts: 2,341
Groaned at 12 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,187 Times in 1,050 Posts
drmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Some good advice in the replies here and probably the biggest reason why many foreigners in Switzerland are underpaid for their position. It is extremely important to negotiate and state a high (but realistic) salary expectation. The better informed you are about the industry/usual salaries the better your chances of getting a good salary. It is next to impossible to catch up a low entry salary later on through promotions, you are simply "the cheap employee" for the company, and they might treat you as such.
Or you might get sacked as you are simply too expensive
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 12.12.2012, 14:37
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
It's important to practice negotiating skills, best place is to start with very low offers on things you don't want very much . Then you get into the take it or leave it mind frame . Don't try if you gave fallen in love with the job / house / car it won't work. Overpriced cars on ET is a good starting point!
Pedantically - I'd argue that this is haggling, not negotiating. Negotiating is about finding long term acceptable solutions for all parties, haggling is "I win, you lose"...

But I'd agree on practice making perfect
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 12.12.2012, 15:41
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Vevey
Posts: 185
Groaned at 16 Times in 7 Posts
Thanked 85 Times in 47 Posts
Duncheg has made some interesting contributions
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

In my case I was asked about my current salary, my salary expectations, and eventually I got an offer with the figure which almost matched what I expected. No negotiations whatsoever.
My profile perfectly fit the requirements for this position though, so my employer invited me for an interview in Switzerland and paid for my travel fees.
My point is that when a company is interested in the particular person, they don't try to lower his or her desired salary.
The only possible consequence of voicing your salary expectations is that if you expect less than their budget, you'll get that less.
I will second simon_ch - it is very important to do some research and find out what is the adequate salary for your position, preferably in particular city (probably this advice is not very relevant to OP already but to next askers). It may seem high at first glance but it might turn out not enough eventually

Good luck with this job!
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 12.12.2012, 15:41
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Or you might get sacked as you are simply too expensive
Unlikely but then again, why not. More likely the company will have to decide between a cheaper and a more expensive employee, sometimes the candidate with worse qualifications but lower salary expectations gets the job. I am not in HR but have been involved in the hiring process at times, money is important and there has to be a correlation between salary demanded and the skill set, but companies do not always hire the best candidate.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 12.12.2012, 15:57
Treverus's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Work in ZH, live in SZ
Posts: 12,232
Groaned at 351 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 23,444 Times in 8,473 Posts
Treverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond reputeTreverus has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
I know several people who have accepted starting salaries lower than their previous/current salaries. Reasons can be better promotion opportunities or just a nicer place to work. I don't think it's that rare.
That's exactly my strategy when hiring people - negotiate them down by offering vague hints on future career opportunities instead of good salaries right now...

Quote:
View Post
Or you might get sacked as you are simply too expensive
I had may fair share of "reorganisations" in Swiss companies. It has not a single time been that logical that the ones who cost too much or perform to bad had to go - it is always the one who does not play golf with the boss.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Treverus for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 12.12.2012, 15:59
drmom's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Somewhere in SG
Posts: 2,341
Groaned at 12 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 2,187 Times in 1,050 Posts
drmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond reputedrmom has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Unlikely but then again, why not. More likely the company will have to decide between a cheaper and a more expensive employee, sometimes the candidate with worse qualifications but lower salary expectations gets the job. I am not in HR but have been involved in the hiring process at times, money is important and there has to be a correlation between salary demanded and the skill set, but companies do not always hire the best candidate.
I didn't mean at the time of hiring - more like years down the road after pay raises, etc... It also depends on how big the company is and how powerful HR is...
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 12.12.2012, 17:13
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Just an update to this. I got a call from the company offering me the job! The salary is minimally higher than what i stated my current salary is.. I feel i should have gone higher, but a bit late now for that..

So I told them im happy that they have made an offer, but would like to receive something in writing before making my final decision. I didn't ask yet on the phone if the salary is negotiable.

The job is 80% and I currently work 100% which im ok with as I am stuyding for masters as well. The salary works out to be slightly more than what I earn now for working 80%.. I just hope that I do work less hours and not end up working 100% for 80% salary. I think that I will ask them for a slightly higher salary and see what they say...
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Nadia77 for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 12.12.2012, 17:32
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Just an update to this. I got a call from the company offering me the job! The salary is minimally higher than what i stated my current salary is.. I feel i should have gone higher, but a bit late now for that..

So I told them im happy that they have made an offer, but would like to receive something in writing before making my final decision. I didn't ask yet on the phone if the salary is negotiable.

The job is 80% and I currently work 100% which im ok with as I am stuyding for masters as well. The salary works out to be slightly more than what I earn now for working 80%.. I just hope that I do work less hours and not end up working 100% for 80% salary. I think that I will ask them for a slightly higher salary and see what they say...
First: congratulations! Now: tell them that you were hoping for a higher salary (add realistic amount) and see how they react. Chances are you'll get it as they've already chosen you and won't mind paying a few hundred CHF more.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 12.12.2012, 20:13
Meeyat's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 680
Groaned at 18 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 874 Times in 349 Posts
Meeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
First: congratulations! Now: tell them that you were hoping for a higher salary (add realistic amount) and see how they react. Chances are you'll get it as they've already chosen you and won't mind paying a few hundred CHF more.
This is absolutely fantastic advice.

Do not forget - negotiation has just started now! They have stated their offer (which is the minimum they will give). Now is your time to:
- explain one more time why you are the best candidate
- ask "what made you select me of all those candidates? Am I the best candidate for this job? ". And you are!


Finally - a simple question "is this the best you can do" - will typically result in e.g. 5% better offer. this is not hard to say.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Meeyat for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 13.12.2012, 10:00
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
First: congratulations! Now: tell them that you were hoping for a higher salary (add realistic amount) and see how they react. Chances are you'll get it as they've already chosen you and won't mind paying a few hundred CHF more.
Thanks you all for the excellent advice. I didn't sleep at all last night worrying about how to ask for more money etc.

1 thing that is causing concern is the fact that have asked that I start on 1st Feb, when i told them in the interview that I have a 2 months notice period which means i technically could only start on 1st March, unless my company is flexible..

Do you think that they could take away the offer if i say I cannot start on the required date? I dont want to sign a contract that says I start on 1st feb, If I cannot deliver this..
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 13.12.2012, 10:08
jacek's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Aargau
Posts: 8,855
Groaned at 125 Times in 92 Posts
Thanked 6,571 Times in 3,638 Posts
jacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond reputejacek has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

My norm is that I never accept anything below 120k and I laugh into faces of the recruiters when offered other than that. Did I mention that cell, keys to exclusive apartment, Porsche vs Ferrari are my favorite bargaining arguments for negotiations It still might explain though why I'm on salary below 100k most of the time and never get invited to the second round of any interview.

On a more serious note though, I have always been reminded that you usually get not what you are worth but what you manage to negotiate. Secondly, it is not about how good you feel about yourself and how great your inspirations are but it is all about whom you know and how to get to know those who run the real show.
__________________
🎾That's what we do to help English speaking expats community in Switzerland:
General Information About Swiss Tennis
Tennis Lessons Summer Winter Seasons
🎾🎾Our charity organization to help unprivileged kids to realize their dreams:
FMTF Supports Tennis For Children in Southern Africa

Last edited by jacek; 13.12.2012 at 10:30.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 13.12.2012, 10:18
Meeyat's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 680
Groaned at 18 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 874 Times in 349 Posts
Meeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Thanks you all for the excellent advice. I didn't sleep at all last night worrying about how to ask for more money etc.
Practice! Practice 25 times aloud in front of the mirror, then 25 times with someone (friend).

If you like contact me on PM, and I can give you my phone number. You can practice on me (I will be "hiring manager" and you can practice asking for more money). If that helps you...


Quote:
1 thing that is causing concern is the fact that have asked that I start on 1st Feb, when i told them in the interview that I have a 2 months notice period which means i technically could only start on 1st March, unless my company is flexible..

Do you think that they could take away the offer if i say I cannot start on the required date? I dont want to sign a contract that says I start on 1st feb, If I cannot deliver this..
They wont take the offer back. You need to respect your current employer's commitments; and it is professional. If you show you are professional to your current employer, this only means you will be professional at new employer.

At my last job interview, when asked when I could join, I replied: "I would need some time to wrap up things, and do proper competence transfer; it would not be fair to leave things hanging before the next person is fully up to speed." This brought me lot of respect from new employer.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Meeyat for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 13.12.2012, 12:01
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Practice! Practice 25 times aloud in front of the mirror, then 25 times with someone (friend).

If you like contact me on PM, and I can give you my phone number. You can practice on me (I will be "hiring manager" and you can practice asking for more money). If that helps you...

Thanks very much for the offer. I hopefully should be ok. I just need to be careful how i word it so that it doesnt come across as too aggressive.


They wont take the offer back. You need to respect your current employer's commitments; and it is professional. If you show you are professional to your current employer, this only means you will be professional at new employer.

At my last job interview, when asked when I could join, I replied: "I would need some time to wrap up things, and do proper competence transfer; it would not be fair to leave things hanging before the next person is fully up to speed." This brought me lot of respect from new employer.
I agree with you on this. I would like to leave in the proper way and hopeuflly they respect this..

On another topic. Before i am all gung-ho about asking for a salary increase, I want to ask if im perhaps being a bit greedy in wanting more..

The job is 80% and the salary for this is 94 000 Chf inc 13th salary. The job will involve travelling much further. At the moment im at work in 5 min but will need to commute to glattbrugg now which is much further. Do you the salary is fair and that I should just leave it at is? Im currently working as a PA but this job is in communications which is my previous profession before i moved here, so career wise it gets me back on track.. Ugh.. Im over thinking this!
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 13.12.2012, 12:12
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
The job is 80% and the salary for this is 94 000 Chf inc 13th salary. The job will involve travelling much further. At the moment im at work in 5 min but will need to commute to glattbrugg now which is much further. Do you the salary is fair and that I should just leave it at is? Im currently working as a PA but this job is in communications which is my previous profession before i moved here, so career wise it gets me back on track.. Ugh.. Im over thinking this!
Is 94'000CHF the base salary or your effective salary (117k base salary)?
If the latter then it sounds like a good salary for sure, would be appropriate for a middle management position in communication with a couple of regular employees underneath.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...1/06_02.html#4
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 13.12.2012, 12:17
Meeyat's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Basel
Posts: 680
Groaned at 18 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 874 Times in 349 Posts
Meeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond reputeMeeyat has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post

The job is 80% and the salary for this is 94 000 Chf inc 13th salary. The job will involve travelling much further. Do you the salary is fair and that I should just leave it at is? Im currently working as a PA but this job is in communications which is my previous profession before i moved here, so career wise it gets me back on track.. Ugh.. Im over thinking this!
I dont know if it is fair (it depends on many many circumstances, job in question, company, industry, your experience, etc). What i DO know, however, that this is the minimum (starting) that the company is willing to offer. You can only negotiate upwards from here...
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 13.12.2012, 12:23
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Is 94'000CHF the base salary or your effective salary (117k base salary)?
If the latter then it sounds like a good salary for sure, would be appropriate for a middle management position in communication with a couple of regular employees underneath.

http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/d...1/06_02.html#4
The base salary is 117CHF and for working 80% I will earn 94 000 CHF..
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 13.12.2012, 14:25
simon_ch's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Zürich
Posts: 2,390
Groaned at 128 Times in 76 Posts
Thanked 3,488 Times in 1,377 Posts
simon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond reputesimon_ch has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
The base salary is 117CHF and for working 80% I will earn 94 000 CHF..
Sounds good, but as Meeyat said, it's a starting point, you could always try and ask for more.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank simon_ch for this useful post:
  #38  
Old 13.12.2012, 15:25
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Ok so just had my negotiation chat and it was tough.. I broached the salary topic by asking if it is negotiable and the response was immediately no.. So i didn't push this further..They said that they had already stretched it as far as it could go..

The only issue is the notice period.. They want me to start 1st feb but my notice is 2 months. I told them this in the interview and said that I hope that my company would be flexible in this regard.. so when i raised this, they said to me that I led them to believe I could start earlier which is not entirely accurate as I wouldn't promise something I cannot deliver..

Sooo... He eventually said he will go the team and ask about the start date as I said of course I would try to negotiate earlier but cannot promise this and cannot sign a contract stating this..

So now I wait to hear if it is flexible or not.. But I cant really go to my HR and resign right now until I have signed the contract...
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Nadia77 for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 13.12.2012, 17:26
ccb ccb is offline
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: biel
Posts: 29
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
ccb has no particular reputation at present
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Quote:
View Post
Some good advice in the replies here and probably the biggest reason why many foreigners in Switzerland are underpaid for their position. It is extremely important to negotiate and state a high (but realistic) salary expectation. The better informed you are about the industry/usual salaries the better your chances of getting a good salary. It is next to impossible to catch up a low entry salary later on through promotions, you are simply "the cheap employee" for the company, and they might treat you as such.
my thought exactly...
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 17.12.2012, 16:13
Nadia77's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Zug
Posts: 203
Groaned at 6 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 145 Times in 67 Posts
Nadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputationNadia77 has an excellent reputation
Re: Is it normal here not to reveal salary until offer is made?

Just an update to this thread. So all my issues with accepting this job offer and have been resolved. Im looking forward to starting my new job in February! After working 2 and half years in a job here that was below my skill level, I finally get back to the work I love..
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Nadia77 for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Is it normal to feel guilty about having my dog put to sleep? Bobby.Buchi Pet corner 31 28.09.2012 21:26
Is it normal to get reimbusement of health insurance in cash? Belgianmum Insurance 11 27.12.2011 16:17
Is this normal practice here? Cybersuz Complaints corner 8 09.08.2010 13:14
Is it normal to not hear from a recruiter? Should I apply directly? brjoha Employment 16 27.10.2009 01:36
How much is the salary for...? Salary survey here Shorrick Mk2 Employment 4 27.07.2007 22:43


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 06:48.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0