Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:07
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Peter0077 has no particular reputation at present
Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

I am a British corporate executive with several years international experience resident in Aberdeen, Scotland looking to make a change of career into Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva and to relocate as soon as I can find a relevant job. If anyone is able to offer any useful tips, suggestions or referrals, I would be grateful if you would kindly send me a private message.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:20
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

I'm a bit confused by the terms - can you explain more?

You say "Physical" trading - I assume you mean as opposed to "paper" trading, right? So you mean that you want to work for a business which uses Crude Oil as a consumer but also trades its position.....rather than working for a trading house which never actually takes physical delivery but makes money on its books?

Have I understood correctly?
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:32
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Peter0077 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
I'm a bit confused by the terms - can you explain more?

You say "Physical" trading - I assume you mean as opposed to "paper" trading, right? So you mean that you want to work for a business which uses Crude Oil as a consumer but also trades its position.....rather than working for a trading house which never actually takes physical delivery but makes money on its books?

Have I understood correctly?

Yeah, you got me there! My background is in law and politics rather than in a numerate business or science subject and even though I had an "A" grade in GCSE Mathematics, I am not very confident that I posess the numerate abilities that may be required for "paper" trading, so I thought the physical crude oil trading side of things as opposed to paper trading might be more appropriate for me especially as I have studied subjects such as "carriage of goods by sea", charter parties etc. previously ..... what do you think?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:38
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
Yeah, you got me there! My background is in law and politics rather than in a numerate business or science subject and even though I had an "A" grade in GCSE Mathematics, I am not very confident that I posess the numerate abilities that may be required for "paper" trading, so I thought the physical crude oil trading side of things as opposed to paper trading might be more appropriate for me especially as I have studied subjects such as "carriage of goods by sea", charter parties etc. previously ..... what do you think?
Then - sorry to be pedantic - but you are probably talking more about "buying" than "trading", right?

I know a very small amount about this area - the only places in Geneva that I am aware of that have trading/buying for their own oil usage are Cargill (I know are in Geneva) and ADM (which I think are in the area). Cargill has one of the biggest cargo fleets in the world so its quite a big operation. I'm also guessing Glencore have something alone those lines, but not in Geneva.

There are probably others here who know more about this area though - there are certainly traders on the forum who can probably guide you better than I can

Good luck
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:50
Verbier's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Lully VD
Posts: 4,383
Groaned at 17 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 4,649 Times in 2,350 Posts
Verbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond reputeVerbier has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Geneva trades over 700 million tons of crude per year. Almost as much as London and Singapore combined. From memory, Geneva trades about 25% of the world's crude.

Link (in French): http://www.hebdo.ch/comment_geneve_e...du_90351_.html

There are some headhunters specialized in area. Sorry, I don't have any names but maybe someone else does.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:51
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
Geneva trades over 700 million tons of crude per year. Almost as much as London and Singapore combined. From memory, Geneva trades about 25% of the world's crude.
Not physical though, right?
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:55
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
I'm a bit confused by the terms - can you explain more?

You say "Physical" trading - I assume you mean as opposed to "paper" trading, right? So you mean that you want to work for a business which uses Crude Oil as a consumer but also trades its position.....rather than working for a trading house which never actually takes physical delivery but makes money on its books?

Have I understood correctly?
i think he means physical trading as opposed to derivatives trading.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 27.12.2012, 23:57
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Geneva
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Peter0077 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
Then - sorry to be pedantic - but you are probably talking more about "buying" than "trading", right?

I know a very small amount about this area - the only places in Geneva that I am aware of that have trading/buying for their own oil usage are Cargill (I know are in Geneva) and ADM (which I think are in the area). Cargill has one of the biggest cargo fleets in the world so its quite a big operation. I'm also guessing Glencore have something alone those lines, but not in Geneva.

There are probably others here who know more about this area though - there are certainly traders on the forum who can probably guide you better than I can

Good luck

No, thank you for being pedantic as that has helped clarify my mind in a way. You mean I am probably talking about buying and selling crude rather than "trading". I guess so.

I have heard of Cargill and Glencore but not of ADM. I am sure I must have approached the former 2 and some others like Trafigura last year but trying to get through to most of these companies in Geneva is like trying to break through a brick wall. One just gets referred to the HR department who come up with the standard responses all the time to the effect that they have no suitable vacancies at the moment etc. but I will try again!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:02
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
i think he means physical trading as opposed to derivatives trading.
Can you help me with the definitions then?

"Physical" needs to be buying for a company which will ultimately take delivery of the oil for their own use - right? Or not?

And that becomes "derivative" or "paper" trading (for a business which uses oil) the minute you buy more than you physically need because then the business balance sheet needs to reflect the derivative value of all of the purchased positions and can no longer just reflect them at the purchased price of the stock?

And then of course there are banks and trading houses who will never take delivery so it is automatically a paper transaction only?

That's how I understand it anyway, but I am rapidly getting out of my depth
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:13
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
Can you help me with the definitions then?

"Physical" needs to be buying for a company which will ultimately take delivery of the oil for their own use - right? Or not?

And that becomes "derivative" or "paper" trading (for a business which uses oil) the minute you buy more than you physically need because then the business balance sheet needs to reflect the derivative value of all of the purchased positions and can no longer just reflect them at the purchased price of the stock?

And then of course there are banks and trading houses who will never take delivery so it is automatically a paper transaction only?

That's how I understand it anyway, but I am rapidly getting out of my depth
physical trading means you're actually buying physical oil. you don't have to use it yourself, most likely you buy it and sell it onto somebody else.

i don't really know much about derivatives trading, but i guess you can also trade derivatives with oil as the underlying asset. or maybe trade some kind of contract for differences based on the value of oil traded on an exchange.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:21
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
physical trading means you're actually buying physical oil. you don't have to use it yourself, most likely you buy it and sell it onto somebody else.
Right...but if you buy it with no plans to ever use it, it cannot be accounted for as a physical buy and is therefore automatically accounted for as a derivative....

Oh well, i guess we are getting off the point of the thread a little. A mod will come along and stop it soon. Oh...hang on.......
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:29
Phil_MCR's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Basel
Posts: 14,776
Groaned at 284 Times in 189 Posts
Thanked 18,666 Times in 7,843 Posts
Phil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond reputePhil_MCR has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
if you buy it with no plans to ever use it, it cannot be accounted for as a physical buy
logic fail here
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:31
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Richterswil
Posts: 541
Groaned at 11 Times in 4 Posts
Thanked 378 Times in 169 Posts
Breezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputationBreezy has an excellent reputation
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
Right...but if you buy it with no plans to ever use it, it cannot be accounted for as a physical buy and is therefore automatically accounted for as a derivative....

Oh well, i guess we are getting off the point of the thread a little. A mod will come along and stop it soon. Oh...hang on.......
Sure someone who is in this business can provide a better description but a paper / derivatives trader will buy a futures contract on oil and then offset it with a matching sell, therefore never taking delivery. Taking delivery in any form is physical even if it is bought with the intention to sell on at a later stage for a higher price. Quite a few places trade both physical and paper as there are certain advantages.

Having said that, I have heard a couple of funny stories where paper traders have accidentally forgotten to put in the offsetting position and then taken delivery e.g. of 6 lorries of sugar and that sort of thing. Not sure if the stories are real, but never let the facts get in the way of a good story etc.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 28.12.2012, 00:39
Caviarchips's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Basel Stadt
Posts: 3,979
Groaned at 99 Times in 77 Posts
Thanked 6,677 Times in 2,388 Posts
Caviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond reputeCaviarchips has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Physical Crude Oil Trading in Geneva

Quote:
View Post
logic fail here
Why??
Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
commodities, oil, trade, trader, trading




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"Let's Get Physical...Physical" SoCalCoise Daily life 3 02.02.2010 10:11
Oil Change - What to do With the Old Oil? mgmidget72 Transportation/driving 1 18.08.2008 13:58


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 10:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0