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  #21  
Old 10.01.2008, 16:32
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Re: Unfair dismissal

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As you point out, procedures have to be followed.


"In such cases a dismissal will only be lawful if it is for a fair reason and the employer has acted reasonably in all the circumstances which usually involves following certain statutorily laid down procedures."
Just out of curiosity to what are you here referring. If it is to the UK, you can hire and fire at will in the first year or two as long as you pay the notice. Statutory regulations in this respect are few and far between...
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  #22  
Old 10.01.2008, 18:36
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Re: Unfair dismissal

The point I was trying to make was that most reputable companies (all the ones I've worked for anyway) have a dismissal procedure that involves verbal and written warnings; ie, they can't get rid of someone out of the blue - not even in their first year. I accept that in some industries, such as IT, this may not be the case - but I don't work in IT or any other industry where this practice is the norm.


Thanks, Nairda
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  #23  
Old 10.01.2008, 20:23
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Although perhaps the company was correct under the letter of the law, I think it's a rather crappy thing to do to someone who has moved from another country to work for them!! They could have done something to make it work or place her in another job or at least given her some warning.

Sorry to hear this has happened to you Lynne!
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  #24  
Old 10.01.2008, 20:55
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Thanks for that, MiniMia!
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  #25  
Old 11.01.2008, 21:51
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Just a possible small crumb of comfort. Are you on 3 months notice in your contract? If so the dismissal given on Tuesday (8th Jan?) doesn't take effect until 31 Jan, which would mean you are employed until 30 April, not the end of March.

I only say because in my industry there is a general contract which gives 1 weeks notice for the first three months of working (which is like a trial period) then 3 months notice thereafter. The same contract is used for shop floor workers through to middle management.

The arbeitszeugnis is very important though. It's just a piece of paper but potential employers place great importance on it. Trying to get a job without one is like trying to go through an airport without a passport.
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  #26  
Old 12.01.2008, 13:59
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Re: Unfair dismissal

According to the OR (Obligationenrecht), the cancellation period is 1 month during the first year (after the probation period is finished), except if stipulated differently in your contract. You need to check your contract if the cancellation period is two months or more, if not, the company offered more than they were required to. Unfortunately for you Switzerland's industrial relations legislation is quite liberal.
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  #27  
Old 12.01.2008, 15:43
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Yes, I'm afraid it's only one month - but thanks to both of you. Liberal is not the word I'd use!
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  #28  
Old 13.01.2008, 12:25
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Re: Unfair dismissal

HI Lynne

In South Africa where I am from they also have strict employment laws and certain procedures have to be followed i.e. written and verbal warnings and the employer needs to try and assist the employee in improving but if that does not work then you can be dismissed - however this is a long and drawn out process and therefore it is very difficult to get rid of someone in SA. I was also surprised to see that the employment laws are so relaxed here and as I can see it can leave room for unfair dismissal i..e personality differences etc.

Good luck with your job search.I would just move on and look for something else... I am sure you will find something. JUst try and get hold of references from your previous employers. I was in recruitment and if someone had a bad reference I would also do 2 or 3 more to verify the issue or whether it was a personal opinion...

Keep well.

Tanya
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  #29  
Old 13.01.2008, 21:16
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Re: Unfair dismissal

The law cuts both ways though. For example if the OP had found a great job she could quit with a months notice, possibly leaving projects unfinished, with no penalty.
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  #30  
Old 13.01.2008, 21:38
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Hi

I understand that but we are dealing with people's lives here and one cannot be fired because of a personality clash. To me that is unacceptable. A business is a business and it keep on going with or without the employee but losing your job can have much more an effect on your life that it will on the business's life....

Thats my take... obviously the system could be abused but the employee needs a degree of protection...
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  #31  
Old 13.01.2008, 21:58
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Would you take the same stance if you were the owner of a business? And one of your employees became difficult to work with?

Although there are few legal barriers to firing staff, there's still an economic cost to the business. So companies only fire staff if they think things really won't work out. And if the OP's boss goes through too many then the boss might also come under scrutiny. In short, I don't think people take dismissal lightly on both sides of the equation. Or resignation for that matter.

Whether Swiss employment law is fair, or liberal, or social or not is another question. What's fact is that the economy here has mananged to flourish within the existing legal framework whereas other economies with different laws haven't. And the safety net for those who find themselves without an income is IMHO quite generous.
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  #32  
Old 13.01.2008, 22:40
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Re: Unfair dismissal

The question is whether they become difficult to deal with or whether you as the employer takes advantage of the system. How is the employee protected is my question? Personality difference is not in my opinion fair dismissal. Neither is race, gender etc etc. If your competencies do not match the relevant job criteria and you are not able to perform the job at hand then that is acceptable.

I was in recruitment for a long time and have therefore seen both sides being abused.

On another note, I am not up to speed on swiss employment law so I know little about the compensation received. I think I had better do some more research to get up to speed as I am no longer in recruitment but my opinion is based on fair and unfair dismissal and the rights you have as an employee. How is the employee protected from an employer that abuses the system and fires the person because they do not like the colour of their hair?

Just a question and a a good discussion
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  #33  
Old 13.01.2008, 22:40
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Oh yes - and are you covered for IHO if you were fired?
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  #34  
Old 14.01.2008, 07:50
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Re: Unfair dismissal

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The question is whether they become difficult to deal with or whether you as the employer takes advantage of the system.
Hello Tanya

In my opinion, and experience, the issue with dismissal cases is that they are alsmot never black or white...

I have hardly seen a case of when it is just "I don't like my employee ". Often, it is more that the employer starts disliking the employee for reasons... Unless we are talking about someone unbalanced who wishes t have fun firing someone, there is often more untold in the story...
Not that I am saying that someone is lying, it is a human tendency to feel we are in the right, but often we have a hard time seeign the other persepctive.

My opinion to the discussion

Cheers,
Cristina
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  #35  
Old 14.01.2008, 12:51
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Re: Unfair dismissal

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Although perhaps the company was correct under the letter of the law, I think it's a rather crappy thing to do to someone who has moved from another country to work for them!! They could have done something to make it work or place her in another job or at least given her some warning.

Sorry to hear this has happened to you Lynne!
Yeah! You should name and shame them.

Your boss seems to have some real clout with her superiors if she can consistently get rid of someone who doesn't have the right chemistry for her. Is it possible she's scared of the person looking better than her?
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  #36  
Old 14.01.2008, 13:03
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Re: Unfair dismissal

I've seen this a lot. Clout is the issue. I've seen pple consistently being fired. The maximum compensation is the notice period with 6 months for unfair dismissal, however in the book "An Introduction to Swiss Law", the courts don't enforce the return of the employee to work.

It all comes down to the initial negotation, I once turned down a relocation job due to a notice period of 1 week during the probation. The response was "that doesn't happen here". My response "I have all the risk". I referred back to the contract.

The best protection in CH is mainly during pregnancy or illness. Good luck with your search for a new job, that's the Swiss cultural solution.
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  #37  
Old 14.01.2008, 17:48
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Re: Unfair dismissal

The question that's difficult to answer is: "Is the success of the Swiss economy because of, or despite of, this kind of easy hiring and firing?".

This reduction of liability on behalf of the employer maybe encourages them to take on questionable employees just to see if they work out.

And the protection for the employee? That'd be Adam Smiths' invisible hand, I guess.
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  #38  
Old 14.01.2008, 18:54
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Re: Unfair dismissal

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On Tuesday, out of the blue, I was given the sack. The reason given was that my head of department did not feel we had the 'right chemistry' - she and her boss were at pains to make clear that they had no complaints about my work. .
well now I can really sympathise after my little chat with HR & my CEO this evening ... now officially a man of leisure until the end of April, although I have managed to negotiate some additional Scooby Snacks, all very civilised.

seems to be the time of year ... out with the old, in with the new.

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  #39  
Old 14.01.2008, 19:11
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Re: Unfair dismissal

Hello

This is just strange to me as I come from a different environment with different legislation so I am not saying it is wrong for the right reasons but I think it is wrong if it is for the wrong reasons... you know what I mean?

Any how, I am not an Employment Law guru and am just adding my two cents worth.. just my opinion.
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  #40  
Old 14.01.2008, 21:48
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Re: Unfair dismissal

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well now I can really sympathise after my little chat with HR & my CEO this evening ... now officially a man of leisure until the end of April, although I have managed to negotiate some additional Scooby Snacks, all very civilised.

seems to be the time of year ... out with the old, in with the new.

That really sucks. I hope you find something else soon. I was "let go" this time last year & it was the best thing that happend to me career wise, I ended up with a fantastic new job at a great company so it can work out great even though it is horrible at the time.
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