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Old 28.01.2008, 14:19
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Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

Hi there..
i know many of you out there are sitting in the comfort of your own desk, ignoring the telephone, while gazing out the window, thinking you would rather be at home.
Not me! I am no longer feeling fullfilled, changing nappies, being sreamed at for making the cocoa to hot/cold, cleaning bathrooms, putting on 3 sets of jackets and shoes while a 2 year old screams "nein - selber machen" and a 4 year old "mami, hilf mir"..
I still dream of those quiet moments with a relativly harmless boss breathing down your neck for a report due at 5pm, the sh*t that hits the fan, has no distinctive smell, and the highlight of your week isn't going to migros(!)
Do you think it is possible? To get a job where BOTH my braincells may be activated? Maybe even at the same time?? ie: have an of you mothers managed to find something after having children, that is intellectually fullfilling (i mean more than just the checkout counter, and learning to say "have a nice day" in 12 different languages??)
Please let me see some success stories?
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Old 28.01.2008, 14:33
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

Well, mine is not a success story in the way you're looking for. I actually never quit my career when my kids where born and that I believe is the easiest way to keep in touch with your brain-cells. This will of course not help you but maybe some prospecting "mothers-to-be" out there read this and are still in time to make some informed decisions about how to keep up with their career while having kids :-)

So what about your prospects? Well, it does of course depend largely on what background you have and what the demand is for people with your skills. But speaking generally, I would say that there for sure are possibilities. If you are done with the "having babies" bit and have no problems saying so to prospective employers, it could actually be seen as an advantage being a "mom". Personally and also in conjunction with my boss, we tend to to put mothers (with the right qualifications of course) in the "could be" pile when hiring. Mothers are generally a better asset to the company in my experience.

What also works in your favour is the positive view Swiss companies have on part-time jobs. It is nothing unusual for people in quite high-level positions to work part-time during periods of their career. However, this is of course more likely to be achieved when you've already established a reputation within the company. Thus, in your case, I would strongly suggest that you don't narrow yourself down only to part-time jobs advertised but rather take a period of 100% into account. If it works out, your chances to reduce your hours later on should be quite high.

Good luck!
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Old 28.01.2008, 14:34
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

It sounds like you are having a really bad day! I know you know it already, but kids can be really great as well. I know that´s easy for me to say, not having re-produced myself, I´m just a nanny who has the luxury of leaving the screaming/whining/ noisy/smelly little ankle-biter with his parents at the end of the day! I have worked in many fields over the years but in the end I decided to work with children. It´s the only occupation where I have felt that I receive something back. I´ve never had a more grateful or affectionate boss (refering to the kid here, as it´s him I have to answer to) and I really feel like I achieve more working with him than in any of my other higher/lesser profile jobs of old. I know you are looking for other advice but I thought hearing this might help.
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Old 28.01.2008, 15:44
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

No success story to tell....but you are obviosuly reading my mind as your comment:

"i know many of you out there are sitting in the comfort of your own desk, ignoring the telephone, while gazing out the window, thinking you would rather be at home"

really hit a nerve with me. Yes, only this morning I thought why do i have to go to work? I was just thinking now that partner has a job here....can I quit or go part-time? But without the excuse of kids, I would be seen as lazy I suppose - does a dog count??? As they say...grass is always greener on the other side. Maybe we should do job swap ;-)
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Old 28.01.2008, 15:46
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

0.34277 tolerance +-0.02

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Hi there..
i know many of you out there are sitting in the comfort of your own desk, ignoring the telephone, while gazing out the window, thinking you would rather be at home.
Not me! I am no longer feeling fullfilled, changing nappies, being sreamed at for making the cocoa to hot/cold, cleaning bathrooms, putting on 3 sets of jackets and shoes while a 2 year old screams "nein - selber machen" and a 4 year old "mami, hilf mir"..
I still dream of those quiet moments with a relativly harmless boss breathing down your neck for a report due at 5pm, the sh*t that hits the fan, has no distinctive smell, and the highlight of your week isn't going to migros(!)
Do you think it is possible? To get a job where BOTH my braincells may be activated? Maybe even at the same time?? ie: have an of you mothers managed to find something after having children, that is intellectually fullfilling (i mean more than just the checkout counter, and learning to say "have a nice day" in 12 different languages??)
Please let me see some success stories?
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Old 28.01.2008, 16:15
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

after a bit of searching - i got it re: beaver.. but is 0.34 tollerance considered low or high?

i prefer the job-swap option.. my neighbour - a childless PR manager has suggested the same thing.
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Old 28.01.2008, 17:11
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

What you must remember is that you are not alone in what you are feeling Most woman who have had jobs and are suddenly a Mummy feel that their brain cells have not been used for anything more taxing than the shopping list! But suddenly, your kids are no longer so dependant on you it is such a short time. I took a part time job share when my kids were small and my boss made life hell for me. He used to pass comments like - I wouldn,t dream of letting my wife work and always made me feel like a terrible Mother. Thank God there are laws against discrimination now and you can work part time and not feel guilty.
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Old 28.01.2008, 17:23
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

I think it depends on your attitude. I'm kinda new here in Switzerland, and kinda pregnant as well which is slowing me down a bit, but until we arrived here, I was essentially a stay at home mum, who developed quite a successful business and I also worked a couple of hours a day somewhere else on top of that. It's a question of how much you want to get out from under the daipers / kid debris, but at the same time without losing touch with your kids. Think hard about what your interests are and how you can adapt those to fill a gap in the market - if I can sort something out for myself then I firmly believe that anyone can! It's just a question of uncovering the thing you can offer that noone else has thought of. I think I might be rambling now, but I wish you luck and hope it turns out ok!
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Old 28.01.2008, 19:02
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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Hi there..
....
Do you think it is possible? To get a job where BOTH my braincells may be activated? Maybe even at the same time?? ie: have an of you mothers managed to find something after having children, that is intellectually fullfilling (i mean more than just the checkout counter, and learning to say "have a nice day" in 12 different languages??)
Please let me see some success stories?
I'm not quite sure what type of advice you're looking for. Surely you must know some working mums. Off the top of my head, I can think of female friends here in Switzerland who have two or more children and work as a (1) doctor (2) business consultant and (3) university professor.

If you already have a field of expertise, than the obvious answer is to look for a job in your field. If you have no specialized qualifications, then the answer is to get some sort of training or further education in your field of interest. I knew a woman in grad school who had a husband who worked full-time and two children under the age of 8, and she managed to work on her PhD full-time. I'm sure it was not easy, but it was doable.

If you're serious about getting further education or training, the normal advice (at least in the circles I frequent) is to treat it like a job, and arrange your personal schedule and child-care accordingly. E.g. take classes and study in the mornings while your children are in a daycare or in the care of a nanny, and spend time with your children in the afternoon. Night classes might also be a viable option depending on what training you need. Also, some universities offer courses online, which would allow you to stay at home. I guess it just depends on what you're looking for.

Anywho. My deux centimes.

HM
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Old 28.01.2008, 20:54
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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<snip> Not me! I am no longer feeling fullfilled <snip>
Is it appropriate to say you no longer feel fulfilled as a Mother?

Me! Me! Me! now the novelty has passed?

I'm not being personal, more interested in the rhetoric.

(I focused on Feminist Epistemology in my Philosophy Bachelors, so no flaming intended, sisters...)
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Old 28.01.2008, 20:58
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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...
(I focused on Feminist Epistemology in my Philosophy Bachelors, so no flaming intended, sisters...)
And if anyone has time on their hands, Uncle Max and I need some ironing doing.
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Old 28.01.2008, 21:01
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

Hey Brother, I'll do it for CHF 3.50 a shirt. This ain't no gender issue - cash is king...
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Old 28.01.2008, 21:05
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

CHF 3.50 a shirt? Done. Start tomorrow.
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Old 28.01.2008, 21:13
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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CHF 3.50 a shirt? Done. Start tomorrow.
Amen!!!


@ I-b-deborah, you bloody ole softy you!!! I liked what you wrote there before tho.

Ros

Last edited by Delphinium Blue; 28.01.2008 at 22:15. Reason: added wee mesage to I-b-deb
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Old 28.01.2008, 21:27
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

rhetoric.. now theres a big word!
to be fulfilled as a mother... I see being a parent as a long term exercize - something like 50 -75 years if I'm lucky. I don't consider that the role of the children is that to "fulfill" me. Neither am I there to "fulfill" them.

I'd like to think that it is a natural instinct to have children, (isn't that why many parents are spending so much on IVF nowerdays? - there is no logic in that.)
I do however have problems adjusting to "only living in their world". And it would also be nice to have a bit more money again. (One friend says "her husband earns enough so that she doesn't have to work"... food for thought.. where is enough? I dont think "enough money" is a term used in New Zealand English.. )

And finding the balance between having well-adjusted, socially responsible, secure children, and a mummy that doesnt wake up after 20 years saying "who is me?"

Recipe for a mid life crisis? I must add that after reading the story of doing your phd while having up 3 kids (yes, I have an ex-school colligue who did that too) I went upstairs and made the kids pikelets(!!)

The Swiss I know that work, are nurses and/or have grandparents there to take on the kids.

My father always said - it is easy to have kids (granted, he never gave birth), it is the bringing them up that is difficult...

PS: my eldest daughter starts kindergarten in August - ie: in the mornings she doesnt need me anymore.... and I would like to get back into finance if someone will have me part time - kindchi time..
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Old 28.01.2008, 22:34
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

Finance meaing? Accounting? How is your German? If you are up to date with Swiss accounting rules (and they are simple :-) and speak German you should be able to find job as a part-time accountant for a small company. You may even be able to do part of the work at home.


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rhetoric.. now theres a big word!
to be fulfilled as a mother... I see being a parent as a long term exercize - something like 50 -75 years if I'm lucky. I don't consider that the role of the children is that to "fulfill" me. Neither am I there to "fulfill" them.

I'd like to think that it is a natural instinct to have children, (isn't that why many parents are spending so much on IVF nowerdays? - there is no logic in that.)
I do however have problems adjusting to "only living in their world". And it would also be nice to have a bit more money again. (One friend says "her husband earns enough so that she doesn't have to work"... food for thought.. where is enough? I dont think "enough money" is a term used in New Zealand English.. )

And finding the balance between having well-adjusted, socially responsible, secure children, and a mummy that doesnt wake up after 20 years saying "who is me?"

Recipe for a mid life crisis? I must add that after reading the story of doing your phd while having up 3 kids (yes, I have an ex-school colligue who did that too) I went upstairs and made the kids pikelets(!!)

The Swiss I know that work, are nurses and/or have grandparents there to take on the kids.

My father always said - it is easy to have kids (granted, he never gave birth), it is the bringing them up that is difficult...

PS: my eldest daughter starts kindergarten in August - ie: in the mornings she doesnt need me anymore.... and I would like to get back into finance if someone will have me part time - kindchi time..
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Old 28.01.2008, 23:01
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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Is it appropriate to say you no longer feel fulfilled as a Mother?

Me! Me! Me! now the novelty has passed?

I'm not being personal, more interested in the rhetoric.

(I focused on Feminist Epistemology in my Philosophy Bachelors, so no flaming intended, sisters...)
Had to come back on line for this as it bothered me a little.

Uncle Max what do you feel is the rhetoric here?

You maybe studied/learned/discussed Female Epistomolgy and all, but why do you think that Rangatiranuis' post was all about her! her! her!? and that the "novelty" has passed?

That came across to me as being somewhat shallow ( coming from yourself, whom I must say, usually takes a most discerning point of view).

I'm interested to hear what it is that prompted you to post this .

Ros

hope too that this doesn't come across as a "flaming" post, (flaming or "flaming"? either way).
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Old 29.01.2008, 07:56
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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@ I-b-deborah, you bloody ole softy you!!!
Yeah, it´s them bloody hormones! One day I´m all nice and soft, and the next it´s out with the ouzi.
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Old 29.01.2008, 10:57
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

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Had to come back on line for this as it bothered me a little.

Uncle Max what do you feel is the rhetoric here?

You maybe studied/learned/discussed Female Epistomolgy and all, but why do you think that Rangatiranuis' post was all about her! her! her!? and that the "novelty" has passed?

That came across to me as being somewhat shallow ( coming from yourself, whom I must say, usually takes a most discerning point of view).

I'm interested to hear what it is that prompted you to post this .

Ros

hope too that this doesn't come across as a "flaming" post, (flaming or "flaming"? either way).

The question certainly wasn't personal. I asked in the light of a few smart 'girlfriends' who've had babies - some after extensive efforts - and suddenly they either give up seeking intellectual stimulus and seem quite proud to be baking cakes and playing with three-piece jigsaws for evermore or realise having a baby is cute an' all but they're going mad with boredom and secretly resent the imposition.

It's the girls going mad with boredom who trouble me, for the sake of their sanity rather than any patriarchal perspective. Time will tell with the first crowd.

They - as the OP commented - love their kids but are scratching their heads wondering 'Is this it?'. I'd like to stick my neck out and say a lot of our Mothers (post-WWII generation) have been doing just that.

So how does one view the dilemma? Child-bearing is undoubtably a fundamental element of being Human, but are we primed well enough in advance to know what it entails? Do 'we' know what we want? Where are the role models for young women (nevermind men)? What happened to the modern incarnation of hairy wimmin burning their Bras?

(I'm disregarding religion for it's reliance on the Middleman: personal salvation comes through fighting for your soul, in my humble opinion.)

"Women of the World take over!"

Oh wait, Victoria Beckham is on this chat show; be right back...
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Old 29.01.2008, 11:06
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Re: Probability of finding an intellectually stimulating job if you have children

This is a bit deep for a Tuesday morning. However I think you have touched a nerve here...

I remember seeing a Jerry Springer style get-the-extremes-on-tv programme. The most shocking thing I have ever seen was this tightly buttoned-up hard-looking middle-aged woman, sitting next to her 15 year old daughter.

The mother was asked if she had her time agian, would she have had her daughter ? She replied "No" without hesitation. The audience was shocked into complete silence.

I saw this programme about 10 years ago, and that moment stays with me still. The effect it had on the daughter, I cannot comprehend.

dave


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The question certainly wasn't personal. I asked in the light of a few smart 'girlfriends' who've had babies - some after extensive efforts - and suddenly they either give up seeking intellectual stimulus and seem quite proud to be baking cakes and playing with three-piece jigsaws for evermore or realise having a baby is cute an' all but they're going mad with boredom and secretly resent the imposition.

It's the girls going mad with boredom who trouble me, for the sake of their sanity rather than any patriarchal perspective. Time will tell with the first crowd.

They - as the OP commented - love their kids but are scratching their heads wondering 'Is this it?'. I'd like to stick my neck out and say a lot of our Mothers (post-WWII generation) have been doing just that.

So how does one view the dilemma? Child-bearing is undoubtably a fundamental element of being Human, but are we primed well enough in advance to know what it entails? Do 'we' know what we want? Where are the role models for young women (nevermind men)? What happened to the modern incarnation of hairy wimmin burning their Bras?

(I'm disregarding religion for it's reliance on the Middleman: personal salvation comes through fighting for your soul, in my humble opinion.)

"Women of the World take over!"

Oh wait, Victoria Beckham is on this chat show; be right back...
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