Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 16.12.2013, 14:56
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Geneva
Posts: 5,531
Groaned at 123 Times in 108 Posts
Thanked 3,297 Times in 1,737 Posts
Shorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond reputeShorrick Mk2 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
Indirectly - only - you are correct.

But the right to get unemployment benefits is not related to any permits, in the strong sense, but by the fact that you must be able to look for a new job while living in Switzerland. If not, you are not eligible! And since the OP has to leave after his/her current temporarily restricted job (OP had to know this from the beginning!), she/he does not lose the right to benefit from unemployment support, not even in the future, but only if she/he is able to comply with the given AL rules/laws, e.g. having residence in Switzerland besids many others.
Read again what you said - you'll find out it is exactly what I said. Unemployment is directly linked to the type permit as that is what allows you or not to "stay and look for jobs".
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Shorrick Mk2 for this useful post:
This user groans at Shorrick Mk2 for this post:
  #22  
Old 16.12.2013, 14:59
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
I would say that the RAV is created and functions as an insurance for the Swiss.
When I had a financial analysis done, it was in fact counted as an insurance.
Like LiquidPaper mentioned, what seems to be the issue with the OP is how this is implemented for non-Swiss citizens.
Again, as I wrote just before. Your distinction between private insurance and social insurance is somehow arbitrarily. Important is what are the rules and whether the rules are applied correctly. And NO, it is not a private insurance - again - by law and nature! (Even in USA: there is even officially classified as a type of social welfare benefit!)



Finally, consider this:

Would these restrictions for temporal residents in Switzerland not be in place (you call them inconsiderably injust ... well, at least, you did not use (yet) the pathetically misused term racist, I acknowledge this), then the misuse of AL of many foreign students/postdocs would be uncountable: study/work as a research assistant for a few months in Switzerland, then let you automaticlly get "unemployed" and benefit from its huge advantages "for free" - or at least for just a few francs you had to spend previously without to get close to a reasonable funding of the unemployment fund by yourself. The Swiss AL unemployment fund would go bankrupt soon, of course. So this is nothing but a very reasonable financial security put in place every insurance has to take into account. You will not find any single insurance on this world which would insure a non-coverable risk!

Quote:
View Post
Unfortunately, none of this was explained during hiring.
Well, are you sure? And even then: the OP did not take care of it (or is he/she just a numb robot?). Or do you buy your hamburger unchecked and eat it with hidden eyes? ... Well, I would not, of course, but obviously some people do in fact!
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Husky for this useful post:
This user groans at Husky for this post:
  #23  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:03
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: zurich
Posts: 31
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
goduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthy
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
You should have been groaned for this! How childish! - And not really expected by a PhD holder ... well.

BTW: where are you from? And let me ask this question: Would your country, to somebody from Switzerland on a temporarily (yes! since it was tied to your job) postdoc leave in your country, entitle him/her to get unemployment benefits???
God damn it...you spit so much sh**%%! I don't know where to start?

Call it discrimination or love, or whatever...The fact is: I contributed as much as an EU-postdoc; who is entitled to RAV but I am NOT. How do you explain THAT?

The berater was useless, and I stand by it. How do you know he was useful is beyond me. He told us in his own language that RAV will apply on my behalf for my visa extension (supply us with a letter to the immigration...etc), and a month later he denied it. I would say he is NOT even professional. I hope your head doesn't boil off in anger for saying this.

I am from the US.

Honestly, please go away to vent off somewhere else if you have nothing meaningful to contribute. I am looking for people who have had similar experiences to see how to approach this.

Last edited by goduckgo; 16.12.2013 at 15:10. Reason: quote, text
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at goduckgo for this post:
  #24  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:03
nasa2000's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Fribourg
Posts: 432
Groaned at 18 Times in 11 Posts
Thanked 280 Times in 130 Posts
nasa2000 has earned the respect of manynasa2000 has earned the respect of manynasa2000 has earned the respect of many
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
It's not as clear-cut as you make it sound - unemployment benefits are linked to the type of permit, not (only) to nationality.
Agreed, actually it is not linked to nationality at all at least not directly, authorities deal with permits.

Still, on whatever it is based on, if authorities pre-determine the outcome for (x) person, then don't deduct from his/her salary and don't give him AL benefits.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank nasa2000 for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:06
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
Read again what you said - you'll find out it is exactly what I said. Unemployment is directly linked to the type permit as that is what allows you or not to "stay and look for jobs".
No! You did not get it. You will not find a single line that relates unemployment rights to the kind of permit. But yes, it depends on your residence status. So therefore, indirectly it is related, but only for the right to claim benefits at the very moment of your absence.

As I wrote already before: if you come back, combined with another work and residence permit, which allows you to stay after you left your job, then you will be fully eligible and your previous contribution will come into effect.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Husky for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Husky for this post:
  #26  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:14
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
No! You did not get it. You will not find a single line that relates unemployment rights to the kind of permit. But yes, it depends on your residence status. So therefore, indirectly it is related, but only for the right to claim benefits at the very moment of your absence.

As I wrote already before: if you come back, combined with another work and residence permit, which allows you to stay after you left your job, then you will be fully eligible and your previous contribution will come into effect.
FYI, kind of permit = residence status = nationality + contract type

Do you understand the permit system, or the RAV system? If you are Swiss, then its understandable that you dont know the details of the immigration system since you never would have to go through it. But dont misinform and speculate with no basis. Moreover, each canton has different details of how it implements permits and RAV.

Deducting unemployment insurance when being ineligible to collect any benefits is unfair, simples.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Kosti for this useful post:
The following 3 users groan at Kosti for this post:
  #27  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:17
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
God damn it...you spit so much sh**%%! I don't know where to start?
You are very brusque and unconsidered so suddenly, even though I seriously tried to explain it to you. Wow, I am impressed, but thoroughly negatively, as even you can imagine, hopefully.

Quote:
View Post
Call discrimination or love, or whatever...The fact is: I contributed as much as an EU-postdoc; who is entitled to RAV but I am NOT. How do you explain THAT?
That's so easy: because the Swiss have the same rights in the EU as well, of course, but not in the USA, obviously. Very simple, isn't it. Should be obvious even to a PhD!

Quote:
View Post
The berater was useless, and I stand by it. How do you know he was useful is beyond me. He told us in his own language that RAV will apply on my behalf for my visa extension (supply us with a letter to the immigration...etc), and a month later he denied it. I would say he is NOT even professional.
Everybody can make errors. Evidently even you.


Quote:
View Post
... I am from the US.

Honestly, please go away to vent off somewhere else if you have nothing meaningful to contribute.
Sounds familiar to me ... very US-american ... if you can't stand it, deny it, don't ever consider to think about it first of all, but rather just simply kill it.

Last edited by Ace1; 16.12.2013 at 17:34. Reason: Corrected last quote. Please do not alter the wording of quoted text like this again.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Husky for this useful post:
This user groans at Husky for this post:
  #28  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:22
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: zurich
Posts: 31
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
goduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthy
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Husky, seriously; just bugger off...and don't derail this thread.
You have clearly nothing meaningful to say.
Go do something useful with your time.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at goduckgo for this post:
  #29  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:24
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
FYI, kind of permit = residence status = nationality + contract type

Do you understand the permit system, or the RAV system? If you are Swiss, then its understandable that you dont know the details of the immigration system since you never would have to go through it. But dont misinform and speculate with no basis. Moreover, each canton has different details of how it implements permits and RAV.
The Arbeitslosenversicherungsgesetz, AVIG is a federal law. Period.

http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...0000/837.0.pdf

Quote:
View Post
Deducting unemployment insurance when being ineligible to collect any benefits is unfair, simples.
So VAT is injustice then also?

Quote:
View Post
the AL deductions are "just" a financing scheeme of the unemployment fond. Just because you paid a part of it, does not entitle you to profit from it (that's not the law).

Last edited by Husky; 16.12.2013 at 15:38.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Husky for this useful post:
This user groans at Husky for this post:
  #30  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:25
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
Husky, seriously; just bugger off...and don't derail this thread.
You have clearly nothing meaningful to say.
Go do something useful with your time.
No arguments left, anymore? ... must have been a cheap PhD!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users groan at Husky for this post:
  #31  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:26
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,022
Groaned at 1,992 Times in 1,508 Posts
Thanked 34,495 Times in 16,400 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
I contributed as much as an EU-postdoc; who is entitled to RAV but I am NOT. How do you explain THAT?
Actually you are entitled to it, provided you stay here.

However, you are not entitled to stay once your permit is no longer valid.

Any foreigner working in the US would be in the same situation if their residence permit had expired, why do you expect it to any different here?

Simple, no?

Tom
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #32  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:28
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
The Arbeitslosenversicherungsgesetz, AVIG is a federal law. Period.

http://www.admin.ch/opc/de/classifie...0000/837.0.pdf



So VAT is injustice than also?
Yes, RAV is a federal law, and so is the law for foreigners. But both are managed by the respective cantonal departments for which the cantons have the discretion to introduce additional rules. Again, please do some research before rushing to respond.

And how is VAT (a tax) related to RAV (an insurance)?
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:31
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 21,387
Groaned at 369 Times in 284 Posts
Thanked 16,190 Times in 9,197 Posts
Medea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond reputeMedea Fleecestealer has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
God damn it...you spit so much sh**%%! I don't know where to start?

Call discrimination or love, or whatever...The fact is: I contributed as much as an EU-postdoc; who is entitled to RAV but I am NOT. How do you explain THAT?

The berater was useless, and I stand by it. How do you know he was useful is beyond me. He told us in his own language that RAV will apply on my behalf for my visa extension (supply us with a letter to the immigration...etc), and a month later he denied it. I would say he is NOT even professional. I hope your head doesn't boil off in anger for saying this.

I am from the US.

Honestly, please go away to vent off somewhere else if you have nothing meaningful to contribute. I am looking for people who have had similar experiences to see how to approach this.
The US would treat anyone on a temp contact like yours exactly the same. They would be expected to pay into unemployment, wouldn't be able to claim it and would be expected to leave the country after their contract ended. I don't know why you're singling out Switzerland as being unfair in not paying you unemployment; this happens in all countries. It's a risk you take by accepting a temporary position; you may not find another job later when the first ends.

Normally when your permit isn't tied to your job, RAV would in effect become your new employer and could apply to have your permit extended. But it would still be up to immigration whether they would do so.

As for how to approach this, IF the letter/notice you had from the immigration authorities said you could appeal the decision then find a lawyer to help you do this. If no appeal is allowed then start preparing to leave the country before your permit expires. Or be lucky enough to find another job quickly. Those are your only options.

Chalk it down to experience and be better prepared for the next time you consider taking up a job abroad.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users would like to thank Medea Fleecestealer for this useful post:
  #34  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:32
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: zurich
Posts: 31
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
goduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthy
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
No arguments left, anymore? ... must have been a cheap PhD!
Dude, you come across really childish. You really missed the point of this thread, read the first post, or go argue somewhere else.
Reply With Quote
The following 3 users groan at goduckgo for this post:
  #35  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:33
Banned
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: ZH
Posts: 124
Groaned at 55 Times in 39 Posts
Thanked 111 Times in 64 Posts
Husky has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
and how is vat (a tax) related to rav (an insurance)?
rtfb:

Quote:
View Post
well, the al deductions are "just" a financing scheeme of the unemployment fond. Just because you paid a part of it, does not entitle you to profit from it (that's not the law). But you can, when you get another job and lose it (soon) again, then the previous al payments (from your postdoc "leave") will be taken into account in order to calculate your unemployment benefits, of course.
compare it to the vat you pay for every purchase you make. Do you think this entitles you to become swiss (or german, us-american ... For heaven's sake), just because you finance the swiss (or german, us-american ...) authorities - of course not. These are the rules, and you simply have to follow them, anywhere on this world ... Well, at least at all those places, where they (the rules) are implemented and executed according to the law.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Husky for this useful post:
The following 2 users groan at Husky for this post:
  #36  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:37
st2lemans's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Lugano
Posts: 29,022
Groaned at 1,992 Times in 1,508 Posts
Thanked 34,495 Times in 16,400 Posts
st2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond reputest2lemans has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
If the permit type and nationality combination doesnt allow benefits to be claimed, then dont deduct unemployment insurance from salary.
Following that logic, someone who is terminally ill and won't live to retirement shouldn't have to pay into any retirement funds.

Tom
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank st2lemans for this useful post:
This user groans at st2lemans for this post:
  #37  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:40
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: zurich
Posts: 31
Groaned at 33 Times in 23 Posts
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
goduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthygoduckgo is considered unworthy
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
I don't know why you're singling out Switzerland as being unfair in not paying you unemployment; this happens in all countries. It's a risk you take by accepting a temporary position; you may not find another job later when the first ends.
Because I live here and it affects me, and I am looking for other people's experiences, because it is a rather vague issue. I payed into this insurance like anybody, yet an EU person would get it but non-EU is not. I am not sure how it goes in the US, to be honest. But this thread has nothing to do with US, or anything. Lets NOT link this particular thread to everything outside. I hope nobody brings Iraq war!
Reply With Quote
This user groans at goduckgo for this post:
  #38  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:45
Kosti's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Oranje County
Posts: 488
Groaned at 27 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 871 Times in 364 Posts
Kosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond reputeKosti has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
Following that logic, someone who is terminally ill and won't live to retirement shouldn't have to pay into any retirement funds.

Tom
I agree, after a terminal illness is diagnosed, if a persons doctor certifies that they will not survive to retirement, AHV deductions should stop.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Kosti for this useful post:
  #39  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:56
11HoursInTheTinPan's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 519
Groaned at 20 Times in 15 Posts
Thanked 901 Times in 358 Posts
11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute11HoursInTheTinPan has a reputation beyond repute
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
I agree, after a terminal illness is diagnosed, if a persons doctor certifies that they will not survive to retirement, AHV deductions should stop.
So a person who has a terminal illness is allowed to save and therefore inherit more money in the end than somebody who dies of a sudden traffic accident? Don't you think the heirs of a victim of a traffic accident (e.g. siblings) would find that a little unfair? Maybe they would wan't some money back as well, especially as their health insurance payments and the one of the dead sibling might have financed the very expensive treatment of the before-mentioned terminally ill.

I think some on this thread are failing to understand the idea behind insurance and especially social insurance.
__________________
Switzerland on the UK quarantine list is the straw that breaks the camel's back! Time to act!
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank 11HoursInTheTinPan for this useful post:
  #40  
Old 16.12.2013, 15:59
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Zurich
Posts: 101
Groaned at 7 Times in 3 Posts
Thanked 81 Times in 42 Posts
abangr has no particular reputation at present
Re: RAV support for no-EU postdoc?

Quote:
View Post
Finally, consider this:

Would these restrictions for temporal residents in Switzerland not be in place (you call them inconsiderably injust ... well, at least, you did not use (yet) the pathetically misused term racist, I acknowledge this), then the misuse of AL of many foreign students/postdocs would be uncountable: study/work as a research assistant for a few months in Switzerland, then let you automaticlly get "unemployed" and benefit from its huge advantages "for free" - or at least for just a few francs you had to spend previously without to get close to a reasonable funding of the unemployment fund by yourself. The Swiss AL unemployment fund would go bankrupt soon, of course. So this is nothing but a very reasonable financial security put in place every insurance has to take into account. You will not find any single insurance on this world which would insure a non-coverable risk!

Well, are you sure? And even then: the OP did not take care of it (or is he/she just a numb robot?). Or do you buy your hamburger unchecked and eat it with hidden eyes? ... Well, I would not, of course, but obviously some people do in fact!
I am not sure why you groaned my last post.
I only meant to say that taken at face value, the term "unemployment insurance" implied that the benefits would be given when one becomes unemployed.
I was not arguing that the OP should or should not get the benefits, or whether or not he/she qualifies.
I was only stating that I understood his/her frustration.

It was ironic that you called someone childish and deserving a groan, and then went around and did a childish act.
Please do read what I wrote, instead of passing judgement based on a pre-conception.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Your different RAV support in Zurich lost_inbroad Swiss politics/news 6 25.01.2012 15:43
Is RAV support extending your Work Permit ? ARK Employment 14 27.10.2010 20:07
Non-EU postdoc - does anyone else have to pay student fees? kiwigeek Permits/visas/government 14 04.08.2010 15:19
Question/info on the new law [non-EU postdoc] cyrus06 Permits/visas/government 7 23.10.2009 14:09
non EU married to EU with no prior residence in the EU aureliebg Permits/visas/government 3 22.09.2007 13:22


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:45.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0