English Forum Switzerland

English Forum Switzerland (https://www.englishforum.ch/forum.php)
-   Employment (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/)
-   -   What is wrong with my applications from abroad? (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/243029-what-wrong-my-applications-abroad.html)

Chuff 03.11.2015 12:10

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton (Post 2478449)
I guess I expected the Swiss IT industry and job availability to be similar to the one I left behind in the Netherlands where there were plenty of jobs and salaries were better than decent. That was only a year or two ago but perhaps that has changed already.

Poland? I've never considered it but right now options are my best friend so I will need all I can get ;)

Why don't you get work in the UK (London), Germany or France to get on your feet and earn some cash while the initial living costs are cheaper? Once you have a settled base there it may be easier to have a shot at getting to Switzerland, especially if you live in Germany/France which is only a few hours from Switzerland by train, meaning you could visit and get a feel for the place. In a year you could then take stock and plan carefully, not to potentially mention commute form over the border if you lived close enough.

Paxton 03.11.2015 12:21

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by dbucar (Post 2478379)
Try Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Finland as well.
They might be more welcoming to English-only speakers, and some of them would have ski-locations nearby.

Cheers

well I had never really considered any Nordic countries so hadn't really decided whether they appeal to me or not. Beggars can't be choosers though :)

Will add them to my list!

fatmanfilms 03.11.2015 12:26

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 2478454)
Why don't you get work in the UK (London),

I think that housing & travel will likely cost more in London than Zurich. Other day to day expenses will be less. With Lower Salaries & Higher taxation London would not be high on my list.

Chuff 03.11.2015 12:35

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fatmanfilms (Post 2478469)
I think that housing & travel will likely cost more in London than Zurich. Other day to day expenses will be less. With Lower Salaries & Higher taxation London would not be high on my list.

My point was that I think those three places would be easier to find a job than Zürich, with less initial financial risk (he said he in a bit of a stick at the moment).

Paxton 03.11.2015 12:39

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 2478454)
Why don't you get work in the UK (London), Germany or France to get on your feet and earn some cash while the initial living costs are cheaper? Once you have a settled base there it may be easier to have a shot at getting to Switzerland, especially if you live in Germany/France which is only a few hours from Switzerland by train, meaning you could visit and get a feel for the place. In a year you could then take stock and plan carefully, not to potentially mention commute form over the border if you lived close enough.

I did live in London for a long time so wanted to avoid going back - It was great though. I would be more inclined to go for Germany as opposed to France but I will only get one shot at trying this so I figured why not go for my number one choice.

The issue is that it seems job opportunities will be few unless I am there in Switzerland and to go there means going all in on one country and one chance. I have also applied to agencies in Germany and have had the same experience...as in no reply. Therefore I didn't have any reason to think that I have a better chance there. I suppose at least in Germany however, I am already an EU citizen so there would be no messing about with visas and it will be easier on the pocket. I have some serious thinking to do :)

Carlos R 03.11.2015 13:06

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuff (Post 2478248)
So basically, you do not live in the country, have not applied for a specific position, don't have specific qualifications for the field, don't speak the language, and expect them to be doing what exactly? Free private coaching?

You missed a couple of bits...

belgo 03.11.2015 13:21

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
We are a small online bank and receive spontaneous applications all the time. In the beginning I replied to each one but this rapidly became too time-consuming. I still reply if people made an effort but no longer to the generic applications. But if you want a better response rate, I would start by giving them a Swiss address even if you are not yet there. No-one will in my opinion take a spontaneous application seriously if it is coming from the other side of the world unless you have a skill-set they cannot find here. Don't forget these recruiting agencies are inundated with applications every day from local applicants.

Paxton 03.11.2015 13:40

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by belgo (Post 2478508)
We are a small online bank and receive spontaneous applications all the time. In the beginning I replied to each one but this rapidly became too time-consuming. I still reply if people made an effort but no longer to the generic applications. But if you want a better response rate, I would start by giving them a Swiss address even if you are not yet there. No-one will in my opinion take a spontaneous application seriously if it is coming from the other side of the world unless you have a skill-set they cannot find here. Don't forget these recruiting agencies are inundated with applications every day from local applicants.

I can understand this although I wouldn't want to give false information stating a Swiss adddress and then being invited to an interview that I cannot possibily attend.

I was not only trying to get my CV out to recruitment agencies in advance, but also trying to get a feel of what my chances might be. And more importantly to make sure there were no pre-requisites that I cannot possibly get together before going such as a degree or proficiency in German. One of these two would render my entire quest useless and would cost me dearly so I would have skipped Swizerland and gone onto my next country of choice.

belgo 03.11.2015 13:46

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Your expectations are not very realistic I am afraid. Did you try to call them to discuss?

jfd134 03.11.2015 14:01

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton (Post 2478534)
I can understand this although I wouldn't want to give false information stating a Swiss adddress and then being invited to an interview that I cannot possibily attend.

I was not only trying to get my CV out to recruitment agencies in advance, but also trying to get a feel of what my chances might be. And more importantly to make sure there were no pre-requisites that I cannot possibly get together before going such as a degree or proficiency in German. One of these two would render my entire quest useless and would cost me dearly so I would have skipped Swizerland and gone onto my next country of choice.

Hi Paxton, keep your head up. The employment market is very tough right now. I was job searching for more than 9 months, as a resident with a B-permit and a PhD. Lots of very clever people here, or wanting to come here, and limited jobs.

Some things that helped me immensely
  • be a rockstar on your linkedIn profile
  • your (1-page) cover letter better be unique and really attention grabbing. Many people are applying, assume all are qualified - why are you best?
  • if you can find any way in via referral (even 'friend of a friend's neighbor), your chance of getting to a hiring manager (and getting an interview) increases dramatically
  • some firms have HR or automated screening, your application might be dead there before an engineer sees it. Make sure it has all the key skills in the job ad.
Lot of free job search options, they also have tips on how to write a resume, cover letter, etc.
  • glassdoor (this will also help you ask for the right salary)
  • linkedin
  • dice
  • ivyexec (get a 1 month free subscription)
  • naturejobs, sciencejobs (they have non-academic positions)
Good luck!

Paxton 03.11.2015 14:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by belgo (Post 2478540)
Your expectations are not very realistic I am afraid. Did you try to call them to discuss?

I don't think that I was being unrealistic. Recruitment agencies know the requirements in their particular country in order to get a work permit and they know their own requirements set by their employers before even considering an applicant.

They would have received my cover letter (email body) and I suppose would have either looked at my CV or not bothered to even do that based on some factor that is unknown to me. They had already taken the time to read the email and possibly the CV so a one liner stating for example " I am sorry but we cannot help you unless you are in the country" or "we cannot help you as you do not have a degree" would have taken marginally less time than they had already spent.

This information would be of great value to me as I could immediately make decisions based on this. If this information were available on the internet I would have used it however, surprisingly it is not clearly stated in any place that I have looked. I then decided ask people here and now I have some good information.

I thought that an email would be much less intrusive than a phone call and they would appreciate me not calling them out of the blue.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jfd134 (Post 2478552)
Hi Paxton, keep your head up. The employment market is very tough right now. I was job searching for more than 9 months, as a resident with a B-permit and a PhD. Lots of very clever people here, or wanting to come here, and limited jobs.

Some things that helped me immensely
  • be a rockstar on your linkedIn profile
  • your (1-page) cover letter better be unique and really attention grabbing. Many people are applying, assume all are qualified - why are you best?
  • if you can find any way in via referral (even 'friend of a friend's neighbor), your chance of getting to a hiring manager (and getting an interview) increases dramatically
  • some firms have HR or automated screening, your application might be dead there before an engineer sees it. Make sure it has all the key skills in the job ad.
Lot of free job search options, they also have tips on how to write a resume, cover letter, etc.
  • glassdoor (this will also help you ask for the right salary)
  • linkedin
  • dice
  • ivyexec (get a 1 month free subscription)
  • naturejobs, sciencejobs (they have non-academic positions)
Good luck!

9 months?? Wow.

thanks for this info ;)

miniMia 03.11.2015 14:15

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
You've gotten some very good advice here.

But 7 non targeted CVs sent with no response?

Get back to us after you have sent 70 specific applications.

Guest 03.11.2015 14:24

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Paxton, to be very realistic, Switzerland is cutting back all over the place, you really don't have anything unique to offer and what ypou do offer can be done by any number of people, already here, with permit and address.

You may be exceedingly lucky and find something, but as you say finances are not brilliant, i really would look elsewhere, Switzerland is expensive and money disappears quickly, especially if you're not earning, and this is certainly not going to happen before 2016 at best now.

Paxton 03.11.2015 14:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by miniMia (Post 2478569)
You've gotten some very good advice here.

But 7 non targeted CVs sent with no response?

Get back to us after you have sent 70 specific applications.

I get your point however I wasn't fishing for a job interview just yet - not if I'm out of the country. I would not even be able to attend unless I got on a plane that very day. I just wanted to get my CV on "file" so to speak and make sure I wasn't asking for the impossible considering that I don't have a degree and dont have German. It was also to somehow gauge if my skills might be of value in the current IT workplace.

Recruiters would know if this is the case and whether I am totally wasting my time even writing. Getting a degree or German proficiency or altering my work skills or experience in a matter of days is impossible. Making any sort of move is absolutely useless unless I am on the right track and at least have the pre-requisites in order.

Quote:

Paxton, to be very realistic, Switzerland is cutting back all over the place, you really don't have anything unique to offer and what ypou do offer can be done by any number of people, already here, with permit and address.

You may be exceedingly lucky and find something, but as you say finances are not brilliant, i really would look elsewhere, Switzerland is expensive and money disappears quickly, especially if you're not earning, and this is certainly not going to happen before 2016 at best now.
Thanks, this helps me a lot too. I want to make a smart, realistic decision and not another silly one.

I've made too many of those recently ;)

Meerkat33 03.11.2015 14:52

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
You have to apply directly to companies with specific cover letters, i don't know how it works elsewhere but no one will find a job for you here (unless you know them personally). Recruitment agencies receive CVs from all over the world all the time. When a company opens up a position they get tens if not hundreds of direct applications from people living here and the EU.
You said you speak italian and french, then why don't you apply to companies in french and italian switzerland too?

miniMia 03.11.2015 15:18

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Paxton (Post 2478587)
I get your point however I wasn't fishing for a job interview just yet - not if I'm out of the country. I would not even be able to attend unless I got on a plane that very day. I just wanted to get my CV on "file" so to speak and make sure I wasn't asking for the impossible considering that I don't have a degree and dont have German. It was also to somehow gauge if my skills might be of value in the current IT workplace.

Recruiters would know if this is the case and whether I am totally wasting my time even writing. Getting a degree or German proficiency or altering my work skills or experience in a matter of days is impossible. Making any sort of move is absolutely useless unless I am on the right track and at least have the pre-requisites in order.

I get that. But with the market the way it is, recruiters don't need to 'work'. There is no hunting needed for head hunters. ;) they may put your CV on file. But they will never look at it.

If you do plan to come to Switzerland, really, you should be prepared for a year long search with 100 applications sent. Maybe you won't need that. You should be prepared though.

Now, I agree with the reply that there is no harm in asking the recruiters for advice. I asked maybe 4 or 5 and one responded. This was in response to specific jobs that I thought I was well qualified for. So maybe that was why I got a response. anyway, no harm asking by. It shows you are serious about your job search.

Now, as someone who is currently recruiting, I have to say I don't bother even reading CVs of people not in the country. I have over 100 candidates and I have to filter somehow. Location is first. Languages second, then I start looking at work experience and last on the list is education. I barely look at that.

Another easy filter is salary. Most English speaking 'expats' are asking for too much money. They have been reading too much EF and don't realize locals expect much less.

kd21 03.11.2015 15:36

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
One word I've learnt (from Swiss coaches) about the swiss job market...:

Contacts

Of course that's not only true in Switzerland, but given the size of the country, I guess it's even more important. So, why should an employer or an agent spend time and effort for somebody who's not even there, neither "unique" in his qualifications and skills?

It's a rhetorical question I'm afraid...

Medea Fleecestealer 03.11.2015 16:50

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
a) what nationality are you putting down on your CV? Aus or Italian?

b) if Aus then that's where part of your problem lies. Hiring a foreign national is difficult and certain criteria have to be met for an employer to be able to do so.

https://www.sem.admin.ch/sem/en/home...zulassung.html

"Cadre, specialists and other qualified employees will be admitted. "Qualified employee" means, first and foremost, people with a degree from a university or institution of higher education as well as several years of professional experience."

As an EU national it's a different story, but frankly it's probably best if you are here on the spot to apply/attend interviews rather than applying from abroad. There are plenty of candidates on the ground here so if you're not one of them I don't think you'll get very far.

newtoswitz 03.11.2015 16:55

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miniMia (Post 2478620)
I get that. But with the market the way it is, recruiters don't need to 'work'. There is no hunting needed for head hunters. ;) they may put your CV on file. But they will never look at it.

If you do plan to come to Switzerland, really, you should be prepared for a year long search with 100 applications sent. Maybe you won't need that. You should be prepared though.

Now, I agree with the reply that there is no harm in asking the recruiters for advice. I asked maybe 4 or 5 and one responded. This was in response to specific jobs that I thought I was well qualified for. So maybe that was why I got a response. anyway, no harm asking by. It shows you are serious about your job search.

Now, as someone who is currently recruiting, I have to say I don't bother even reading CVs of people not in the country. I have over 100 candidates and I have to filter somehow. Location is first. Languages second, then I start looking at work experience and last on the list is education. I barely look at that.

Another easy filter is salary. Most English speaking 'expats' are asking for too much money. They have been reading too much EF and don't realize locals expect much less.

^^ This ^^

I can confidently say I have more than enough CVs "on file". Anything that isn't local and a very good match goes into the round file; life's too short.

Capo 04.11.2015 11:34

Re: What is wrong with my applications from abroad?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by miniMia (Post 2478620)
Now, as someone who is currently recruiting, I have to say I don't bother even reading CVs of people not in the country. I have over 100 candidates and I have to filter somehow. Location is first. Languages second, then I start looking at work experience and last on the list is education. I barely look at that.

Well, I think it's not the norm, perhaps true for IT...

BUT in many industries (e.g. investment banking), to fulfill front office positions, education is the first item that many recruiter will use as cut-off.


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 05:13.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0