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Old 09.03.2016, 19:15
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IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Hi there,

I am an IT contractor and recently made redundant. I will be eligible to RAV with the recently increased max. amount (148k, if I am not mistaken). I would like to continue to be contractor, however it might take much more time to get a contract than getting a permanent position.

My contracting gross income was around 170k (calculating with 25 payed holidays and 8 national holidays, 0 sick days, to make comparable to permanent employment). As permanent I would get around 110-120k. The difference is huge (especially if we calculate with the living costs to see how many months more I have to work in a permanent job just to save as much as in contracting within one month...)

Of course, I will be forced by RAV to take any job which pays at least 70% of the 148k (103k). As I know myself, I am more like a freelancer type and do not like beeing in a permanent position for years and the money is also an aspect. Now my question to contractors: what is your strategy in job hunting? Of course I would like to be fair with all the companies during interviews and when they know how much is the difference between they offer and I was formerly earning, do not they think that I will quit as soon as I get a contract job again? Unfortunately the more time is spent in a permanent position the less is the chance that I would get a contract one, as contractors should be available more or less immediately and it is very rare that companies are waiting for 2-3 months notice periods. Also it is not easy to attend to interviews, even during the probation period in a permanent job. It sounds like a trap.

What is the best strategy do be conform with the RAV process, but allow myself a little bit more time to get a contract position again and not being forced to take a bad job, for example a stressful permanent one paying 110k, 2x1.5 hours commuting per day...
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Old 09.03.2016, 19:23
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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Hi there,

I am an IT contractor and recently made redundant. I will be eligible to RAV with the recently increased max. amount (148k, if I am not mistaken). I would like to continue to be contractor, however it might take much more time to get a contract than getting a permanent position.

My contracting gross income was around 170k (calculating with 25 payed holidays and 8 national holidays, 0 sick days, to make comparable to permanent employment). As permanent I would get around 110-120k. The difference is huge (especially if we calculate with the living costs to see how many months more I have to work in a permanent job just to save as much as in contracting within one month...)

Of course, I will be forced by RAV to take any job which pays at least 70% of the 148k (103k). As I know myself, I am more like a freelancer type and do not like beeing in a permanent position for years and the money is also an aspect. Now my question to contractors: what is your strategy in job hunting? Of course I would like to be fair with all the companies during interviews and when they know how much is the difference between they offer and I was formerly earning, do not they think that I will quit as soon as I get a contract job again? Unfortunately the more time is spent in a permanent position the less is the chance that I would get a contract one, as contractors should be available more or less immediately and it is very rare that companies are waiting for 2-3 months notice periods. Also it is not easy to attend to interviews, even during the probation period in a permanent job. It sounds like a trap.

What is the best strategy do be conform with the RAV process, but allow myself a little bit more time to get a contract position again and not being forced to take a bad job, for example a stressful permanent one paying 110k, 2x1.5 hours commuting per day...
The RAV's job is to reduce financial cost to the insurance, count yourself lucky as the insured salary was only 10500 last year so they could force you to take a job paying 86k. Actually they could still make you take a job paying 70k & top up 70% of the difference. Remember you won't get anything the first month, hope you were looking for a job for 3 months before your contract ended or you won't get much the second month.

I get the feeling you want to talk the piss out of a very generous system
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Old 09.03.2016, 19:37
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Don't give them any possibility to delay the payment, best is don't do any interim work, don't choose the UNIA, do applications(at least 15-20 a month).
Have you done applications in your notice period ??
If not, they can delay the payments for that reason.
Did you signed up at the RAV already?
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Old 09.03.2016, 19:39
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Easy. Don't sign up for unemployment.

You can either have the cake or eat the cake. Not both.
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Old 09.03.2016, 21:18
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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The difference is huge (especially if we calculate with the living costs to see how many months more I have to work in a permanent job just to save as much as in contracting within one month...)
I've no idea how you're going to cope on only CHF104k. Seriously, this is bullshit. How can anyone be expected to make savings while on an insurance which pays above the national average salary when not even working?

You mention "we". Does the salary of your partner not help tide you over?

BTW, some here will pick on you for sounding spoilt. They don't know how hard it is not being in the top 7%. If you're having difficulties may I suggest you call this helpline for tools? +41-555-STFU?

Good luck with your job search!
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Old 09.03.2016, 21:23
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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Easy. Don't sign up for unemployment.

You can either have the cake or eat the cake. Not both.
Exactly that, OP your post is pointless.

You can't do both, if you join someone's company you can't leave immediately and contracts won't wait for you.

On the other hand, RAV cannot pay you forever until you find your dream job if you have other well paying ones in the meantime.

Just get as many months as you can in RAV and once they pressure you too much just stop getting the benefits.
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Old 09.03.2016, 21:51
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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You mention "we". Does the salary of your partner not help tide you over?
We are in Switzerland.

Most partners do not work here.

Tom
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Old 09.03.2016, 22:21
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

I was an IT contractor for 17 years. When, inevitably, contracts dried up for a while, I always got on to the task of searching for work somewhere else, and never claimed money from the state. My view was that I was paid better rates than permies for exactly these situations: sickness, holidays and 'resting'. It's time to use your rainy day fund, which of course you must have saved up...

This is the price of the freedom of contracting. Just find ways of keeping your costs down and keep scanning jobserve.com.
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Old 09.03.2016, 22:29
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

I don't agree with that, he is as much entitled to RAV as everyone else and perhaps more as his taxes/earnings are higher than average.

As long as it's for a valid reason as he can't find work then it's all good and he should claim until he finds something, within reason.
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Old 09.03.2016, 22:44
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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I don't agree with that, he is as much entitled to RAV as everyone else and perhaps more as his taxes/earnings are higher than average.

As long as it's for a valid reason as he can't find work then it's all good and he should claim until he finds something, within reason.
That wasn't really what I meant to say - I perhaps put it a bit clumsily. I'm not saying he is not entitled to RAV, but that if he wants to preserve his freedom to act then he will have to rely on his own resources, rather than depending on the state's money with strings attached.
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Old 09.03.2016, 23:56
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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The RAV's job is to reduce financial cost to the insurance (...) I get the feeling you want to talk the piss out of a very generous system
Contracting IS actually an employment (the agency takes a big margin on us), because is done through payroll, we are using company property, we are working for one company (=employer), not taking risk but devoting our time,etc. The only main difference (from RAV's perspective) is that usually contracting limited in time, meaning usually 6-12 months (rolling) contracts, which implies that a contractor possibly will be unemployed after that (because the 3 months before ending the contract is usually not enough to line up the next one). From the contractor's salary the ALV is also deducted, so we are eligible to RAV. Otherwise we could have our own company and we would earn even more - but there is a "reason", why contractors should be employed by agencies (preferred suppliers of the client company). So in my view the contracting is just a sort of employment, which pays better. By contracting we are not running a business which would justify the higher risk for the higher profit, so the "have the cake or eat the cake" is not a valid point, I think. From now on, it is better to refer just as "higher paying" (contracting) or "lower paying" (permanent) employment.


Quote:
"Piss out of a very generous system"
Yes, on a way it is true, because I am looking for the way how can I allow myself just a little bit more time to find "higher paying" job again (ie. the more time passes the higher is the chance that I find something on jobserve.com...)

And I think it is not fair to undertake a "lower paying" job in the meantime with the intention to leave it as soon as I find "higher paying" again. This would be unfair for the employer if I hide this fact. But actually RAV's argument is to take ANY job, just to reduce the loss of ALK. In such cases RAV does not care of the cost and damage caused to the "low paying" companies.

I like and agree with the approach of:
Quote:
It's time to use your rainy day fund, which of course you must have saved up...
And I would use my savings for living for 1-2 additional months and enjoy the freedom, not being obliged to search ANY sort of job, etc. That would be fair. Why I am not doing it?
Because what if the job search (in the worst case even for a permanent one) takes much longer (e.g. more than a year)? The difference in the earning is not so big to compensate this risk. That's why we must be insured as well. (I personally feel fair let's say 2 months on top of the 3 months preceeding the contract end). How many months would be fair?

The problem is exactly this. The system is so created (and please correct me if I am wrong) that taking holiday before and during RAV is NOT possible at all. (Except one week after every 3 months). Unless you are permanently sick therefore unable to work, there is no another reason to prolong starting of the RAV. Either you sign up immediately (actually as soon as you know that your contract will end) or you will miss this aid for ever. In other words, why this system does not allow the people the chance to find a more suitable (closer, higher paying, more interesting, etc) job if one delays the RAV sign up for this "freedom" in exchange on his "own" cost? This is exactly where I am coming from and I am looking for a solution.

Just another thing about "exploiting" the system: I hope, noone thinks that having a year's gap in CV in IT is a good thing, so I would not milk the system just because I am lazy or something.


Quote:
RAV cannot pay you forever until you find your dream job if you have other well paying ones in the meantime. Just get as many months as you can in RAV and once they pressure you too much just stop getting the benefits.
To be honest, I do not have experience with RAV yet, however I work here since almost 10 years (in "lower paying" jobs in the beginning). But how I interpret the RAV is that they want to put you in any job as soon as possible. They do not care if it is good to you or your family (ie. you might be forced to take a job with 4 hours commuting), how stressful is the job, etc.
From your answer I understand that this is not the case? What if I get a "not very supportive" advisor? The rules are still the same.... any job for 70% of the insured salary, etc. After how long time comes the "pressure" from RAV?
How many interviews can I abort for example due to "lower pay", but still above the 70%?


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"We" are in Switzerland.
Most partners do not work here.
Exactly, this is how I have meant, thanks
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Old 10.03.2016, 00:11
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

RAV cant force you to take any job, because from the company perspective they wont want to hire someone who will quit as soon as they find something better. so it doesnt really make sense and you wont be offered a contract you dont like anyway

Most RAV advisors are not useful and a hindrance to the job hunting process..just hope you get a reasonable one!
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Old 10.03.2016, 00:44
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Relax mate, RAV are not going to put for example a TOGAF certified chap into IT support
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Old 10.03.2016, 01:29
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

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by contracting we are not running a business which would justify the higher risk for the higher profit, so the "have the cake or eat the cake" is not a valid point, I think. From now on, it is better to refer just as "higher paying" (contracting) or "lower paying" (permanent) employment.
Sure it is. You get paid more exactly due to the risk of not being employed for some time. It's not a difficult concept. Part of the extra you get paid you should be putting away for the couple of months you spend between jobs.

And of course RAV can not physically force you to take a job. But they certainly can penalize you by not paying x days/months for refusing to take a job.
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Old 10.03.2016, 02:11
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

As someone who also did contract work in Switzerland and elsewhere my calculation was and still is that a 50% increase means you receive about the same as a permanent employee. This 50% include the risk premium as well as some money for the fact that you often don't get much more paid for overtime or travelling.


If you spent already that much time here looking for a stable job would actually make sense. Maybe not as the first option but for sure later. Being managed by an agency year after year is something I never did nor do I recommend it.
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Old 10.03.2016, 07:41
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Let's rename the thread to "RAV does not support my cherry picking scheme".
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Old 10.03.2016, 09:53
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

As others have said, no-one will force you to take a job, but if you don't you'll lose benefits. In terms of finding a bit more time, that would work for you. Or you take a new job and still continue to search for a contract but few employers would knowingly want you to do that so you're not likely to get an offer if they're aware of your intentions.

There are maybe three companies I can work for, so I'm always a bit bemused at the 10-15 applications per month thing.
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Old 10.03.2016, 09:58
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

Even if you have to accept a new (low) paying job you can always resign within 7 days in the probation period which is normally 3 month. So if you are in the beginning of your RAV process you have at least 1-2 month to find a new job and then 3 month probation period. Within this time frame you can always resign when you have found a new job as a contractor.
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Old 10.03.2016, 10:06
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

you can always sign a contract and keep looking for sth else. It is never mentioned that you are not allowed to keep looking if you signed a contract. (as mentioned several times already)

The best option, in your case, is not to apply for unemployment, because you want to remain "free" and be able to go abroad.
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Old 10.03.2016, 11:09
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Re: IT Contractor on RAV is forced to take permanent positions. Solution?

may be the OP needs some tips on "how to get rejected at job interviews":


- wearing an old fashion pink tie
- chewing gum
- wrong body language (no eye contact bad handshake, ..)
- (for men) wearing a short sleeve shirt so that your tattoo "love Bob" is well visible (attention this could also have an inverse effect).
- talking about your previous job in a bad light
- bargaining about salary
- throwing hints about other job offers


asking the wrong question:


"what other fringe benefits do you offer..." , "whats in for me ? " ,
"is this salary for a 100% position ?" when they reply "yes" you raise your eyebrows and give an astonished look.
and when you get asked "what's important for you in your new job" you reply "much money !" and then when asked "nothing else ?"
you say "yes - even more money !"
(attention if you apply for a position as managing director at Credit Suisse or UBS these answers are highly esteemed)


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