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Old 06.06.2016, 10:44
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Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

new day new drama.

My wife got a doctors note on friday saying she cannot work weekends (see other thread) and emailed it to her boss. Then the boss called our doctor and shouted and screamed at him and somehow got him to rescind the note?????? then phoned my wife and shouted and screamed at her, by the time she had finished it was too late to call the doctor to see what the hell was going on.

so, is a doctor legally allowed to speak to my wifes boss???? the little tick box on the note about contact allowed is crossed out, which says to me no.

can a doctor rescind a note??? baring in mind he didn't speak to my wife about it before or after (until this morning)

can her boss legally start chasing the dr? let alone arguing with him

pretty annoyed at the doctor and her boss, why he didn't tell her to go forth and multiply is beyond me
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Old 06.06.2016, 10:46
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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new day new drama.

My wife got a doctors note on friday saying she cannot work weekends (see other thread) and emailed it to her boss. Then the boss called our doctor and shouted and screamed at him and somehow got him to rescind the note?????? then phoned my wife and shouted and screamed at her, by the time she had finished it was too late to call the doctor to see what the hell was going on.

so, is a doctor legally allowed to speak to my wifes boss???? the little tick box on the note about contact allowed is crossed out, which says to me no.

can a doctor rescind a note??? baring in mind he didn't speak to my wife about it before or after (until this morning)

can her boss legally start chasing the dr? let alone arguing with him

pretty annoyed at the doctor and her boss, why he didn't tell her to go forth and multiply is beyond me
Does your wife have the signed doctors not (or copy there of)? Has your wife spoke to the doctor today to confirm?
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Old 06.06.2016, 10:49
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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Does your wife have the signed doctors not (or copy there of)? Has your wife spoke to the doctor today to confirm?

yes and yes, the dr says he agreed that the mrs can work 2 days then 1 off, so changed the note on friday without telling her, she still has the original
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:03
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

I am sorry, but if she is able to work some days, eg 2 days then 1 off - the week-end is irrelevant to illness as such, or? Which is perhaps what the boss said to him, perhaps?
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:08
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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I am sorry, but if she is able to work some days, eg 2 days then 1 off - the week-end is irrelevant to illness as such, or? Which is perhaps what the boss said to him, perhaps?
correct. but she had already worked 5 days and the boss wanted her to work the weekend as well, as she is signed off 50% she had already worked her hours for the week anyway. The boss is mobbing her and has now dragged the dr into this mess, her boss seems to think she can pick and choose which part of the 50% applies to her "its ok we'll take the hours off next week, the week after etc" is not acceptable when you're trying to recover from major back surgery
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:20
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

in principle yes the employer may contact the doctor and request more detailed information as to what exactly the "arbeitsunfähigkeit" covers. Which it sounds to me is all the doctor actually did. Assuming a patient works full time and saying they are able to work 2 days, one day off etc would just be a simple clarification of the 50% arbeitsunfähigkeit and not a change in it. Nor does it mean the doc breeched the confidentiality of the patient.
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:28
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

Thanks BigBlue and good luck- your posts seemed to indicate she couldn't work at week-ends in general- even as part of 2 to 1.
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:38
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

thanks, the 50% is still valid, that was never in question. the issue is because her boss is choosing to ignore it and trying to level it out over the month, thus not giving my wifes back sufficient time to recover (which caused the issue in the first place), she already did her 50% hours in the week then demanded she worked the weekend as well, hence going to the dr.

as in the previous thread her boss has already fired her and is making her work out the 2 months notice period and is now making her life very unpleasant (tying to make her walk out), phoning the DR and shouting him down is a crossed line too far imho
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:45
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

Why don't you go to Unia or RAV to ask for advice.

Anyone who resigns from their job, without trying everything through the proper chanels to discuss and solve any issues- and later saying they were 'mobbed' etc- risk not only getting penalties from RAV but actually not being elegible at all. This was challenged in the Courts last year (I posted the link at the time) and the employees lost the appeal- as he had not discussed the issues with management, or given them any chance to sort things out- so it was deemed he had 'chosen' to leave and was not eleigible fr un-employment benefits at all.

In this case however- your wife has made every attempt to sort things out, and the employer is behaving abominably and making her conditions worse + not following doctor's prescribed advice- so I think they could make a good case for her to leave without serving notice.

The only risk, due to the Stammtisch effect- that she might find it difficult to find work in the community elsewhere (sadly).
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:46
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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thanks, the 50% is still valid, that was never in question. the issue is because her boss is choosing to ignore it and trying to level it out over the month, thus not giving my wifes back sufficient time to recover (which caused the issue in the first place), she already did her 50% hours in the week then demanded she worked the weekend as well, hence going to the dr.
Is she on an hourly contract? A days per month contract?
Does 2on/1off actually work out as 50%?

Anyone know how liability is dealt with if an employer tries to force an employee to work greater than the % indicated by a doctor?
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:47
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

she has registered with the RAV, her appointment is on the 16th, can you ask for an emergency appointment?
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:48
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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so, is a doctor legally allowed to speak to my wifes boss???? the little tick box on the note about contact allowed is crossed out, which says to me no.
She can call, but the doctor is not allowed to give out information as to the reason of the absence. He can only confirm that she is sick, that is all. Doctor-patient confidentiality.

If the boss is doubting your wife's sickness, she needs to send her to another doctor of her choice (Vertrauensarzt) who may or may not reach a different verdict.

Has the Krankentaggeldversicherung stepped in already? Usually they do so after a while and may open a case management. For that, your wife may need to sign an agreement to lift some of the doctor-patient confidentiality, however, that is normally restricted to other medical personnel (i.e. the Vertrauensarzt mentioned above may liaise with the usual doctor). She can refuse to sign this agreement, but it may have an impact on the payment of her KTG.

The boss will NEVER receive any information from any (decent) doctor or insurance other than the statement that your wife is a) sick and unable to work or b) not sick and able to work.
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:48
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

Perhaps UNIA?
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:56
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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Is she on an hourly contract? A days per month contract?
Does 2on/1off actually work out as 50%?

Anyone know how liability is dealt with if an employer tries to force an employee to work greater than the % indicated by a doctor?

she can only work a max of 5 hours a day (which is 50%), not sure how the contract is worded, she's paid monthly but has work hours per week I think, weekends where never in her contract anyway and when she took the job it was specifically agreed no weekend work, it kinda snuck in, which is why (I guess) the boss is making such a big deal over it, there is absolutely no reason for her to work a weekend, she has plenty of other staff there all employed well after my wife started
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:59
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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She can call, but the doctor is not allowed to give out information as to the reason of the absence. He can only confirm that she is sick, that is all. Doctor-patient confidentiality.

If the boss is doubting your wife's sickness, she needs to send her to another doctor of her choice (Vertrauensarzt) who may or may not reach a different verdict.

Has the Krankentaggeldversicherung stepped in already? Usually they do so after a while and may open a case management. For that, your wife may need to sign an agreement to lift some of the doctor-patient confidentiality, however, that is normally restricted to other medical personnel (i.e. the Vertrauensarzt mentioned above may liaise with the usual doctor). She can refuse to sign this agreement, but it may have an impact on the payment of her KTG.

The boss will NEVER receive any information from any (decent) doctor or insurance other than the statement that your wife is a) sick and unable to work or b) not sick and able to work.
yes she signed one of those for the specialist who did the operation, that's a good point, had forgotten all about that, but that was for the company insurance company, not her boss, before a couple of weeks ago she had been signed off 100% since Jan
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Old 06.06.2016, 11:59
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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correct. but she had already worked 5 days and the boss wanted her to work the weekend as well, as she is signed off 50% she had already worked her hours for the week anyway. The boss is mobbing her and has now dragged the dr into this mess, her boss seems to think she can pick and choose which part of the 50% applies to her "its ok we'll take the hours off next week, the week after etc" is not acceptable when you're trying to recover from major back surgery
If she had already worked her hours for the week ( at the 50% rate) surely it's irrelevant whether it's the weekend or not as she can't work anymore anyway and the boss can't make her work more.
I assume the doctor maintained the 50% work hours?

Maybe she should work 200% for a week and take the next three weeks off? By the boss's logic that isn't a problem although I don't think it would do your wife's back any good.
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Old 06.06.2016, 12:07
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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If she had already worked her hours for the week ( at the 50% rate) surely it's irrelevant whether it's the weekend or not as she can't work anymore anyway and the boss can't make her work more.
I assume the doctor maintained the 50% work hours?

Maybe she should work 200% for a week and take the next three weeks off? By the boss's logic that isn't a problem although I don't think it would do your wife's back any good.

yes the 50% is maintained, her boss did ask her to work 100% days but less of them

the weekend work is a bit of a red herring tbh, the boss has only picked up on it as my wife said no, so then specifically penciled her in to work just about all weekends for the next 2 months, while making sure she had the smallest gaps between breaks.
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Old 06.06.2016, 12:45
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

As said, the form is for medical personnel to exchange information. Not for the boss. Your wife is not required to ever disclose the exact cause of her absence to her boss if she doesn't want to, not even if she returned to work and worked there again for 20 years.


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yes the 50% is maintained, her boss did ask her to work 100% days but less of them
OK hold on here for a sec. I understand that the boss is fine with 50%, but wants the working time to be distributed differently? Afaik, that is actually ok. Meaning: the employer and employee may decide together how a reduced working time may be distributed. There needs to be a specific medical reason for her to only work a certain number of days vs e.g. limited hours every day. If she cannot/does not want to work weekends, a doctor needs to certify that that is indeed no option. Personally, I don't see a difference between weekends and weekdays - can you explain that further?

There was a similar case here a while back with someone signed off sick 50% where the company said they want her to work every day for a few hours rather than 2-3 full days a week. That is OK to do, unless again, specified by the doctor that this is no option (again, a "why" is not necessary, only a "that").


So if for example your doctor says that your wife is fine to work 2 days in a row and then take 2 days rest, then that's the way it is and if those 2 days of working happen to fall on a weekend, that is tough luck, but actually okay to request.
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Old 06.06.2016, 12:52
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

she is only allowed to work a max of 5 hours a day (which is the 50%) that's because its a back related issue
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Old 06.06.2016, 12:52
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Re: Doctors note and employer phoning doctor, legal?

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As said, the form is for medical personnel to exchange information. Not for the boss. Your wife is not required to ever disclose the exact cause of her absence to her boss if she doesn't want to, not even if she returned to work and worked there again for 20 years.




OK hold on here for a sec. I understand that the boss is fine with 50%, but wants the working time to be distributed differently? Afaik, that is actually ok. Meaning: the employer and employee may decide together how a reduced working time may be distributed. There needs to be a specific medical reason for her to only work a certain number of days vs e.g. limited hours every day. If she cannot/does not want to work weekends, a doctor needs to certify that that is indeed no option. Personally, I don't see a difference between weekends and weekdays - can you explain that further?

There was a similar case here a while back with someone signed off sick 50% where the company said they want her to work every day for a few hours rather than 2-3 full days a week. That is OK to do, unless again, specified by the doctor that this is no option (again, a "why" is not necessary, only a "that").


So if for example your doctor says that your wife is fine to work 2 days in a row and then take 2 days rest, then that's the way it is and if those 2 days of working happen to fall on a weekend, that is tough luck, but actually okay to request.
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she can only work a max of 5 hours a day (which is 50%), not sure how the contract is worded, she's paid monthly but has work hours per week I think, weekends where never in her contract anyway and when she took the job it was specifically agreed no weekend work, it kinda snuck in, which is why (I guess) the boss is making such a big deal over it, there is absolutely no reason for her to work a weekend, she has plenty of other staff there all employed well after my wife started
As I understand it the OP's wife is quite happy to work a few hours every day as she is not allowed to work for longer periods ( more than five hours) while her back recovers completely. Also she can only work 2 days in a row and then has to have a day off if I understand correctly.
Surely the boss can't make her work two days at 100% and then take two days off in this situation?

We'll leave aside the weekend work for the moment as that's a seperate issue.
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