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Old 20.06.2016, 11:20
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Self-Employed and RAV

Hi, guys, I have a question. Right now, I am working as a full time employee in a company and I also have a side project on which I am earning some money as freelancer (side line occupation). The prospect looks good, so I am thinking about quitting my job to work on this project on a full time basis.
What happens if things do not go as expected in the first 6-12 months? Will I still be entitled to RAV unemployment benefits? I have been working full time non-stop for the last 3.5 years, so if 6-12 months pass by and I see that things do not go as expected, will I still be entitled to unemployment benefits since I will have been working for 1-1.5 year in the last 2 years?

Also, is it possible to be receiving the unemployment benefits and keep the freelancer business if it is generating relatively low incomes until I find a new job? And in order to register on the RAV in this case, what is the start date of the applications I have to show? The date of resignation? The date I started being a freelancer? Or the date I decided to go to RAV? I am asking because I know that they are strict, but how can you be searching for a new job from the beginning just to show them that you have done your part if your intention is to build your own business?

Please note that my intention is not to abuse the RAV system, it is just my backup plan in case things go south.
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Old 20.06.2016, 15:57
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

If you're only working on the one project I think RAV/AHV will consider you as an employee of that company and not as a freelancer.
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Old 20.06.2016, 16:25
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

Clarification:

I have at least three clients (invoices sent to separate clients), all of whom are based abroad (EU and US)
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Old 20.06.2016, 18:19
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

http://www.awa.zh.ch/internet/volksw...eit-in-der-alv

Says that no, what you have in mind is not possible. You have to destroy your company in order to receive any benefits. The time you have been working for your own company will not count towards the benefits, so if it goes south, make it go south quickly :P

Good luck!
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Old 20.06.2016, 18:26
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

Don't you also need to go the ANobAG route? If your work is, essentially, for clients outside of CH but you're "Performing" it here?


I'd contact your local AHV office, personally.
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Old 20.06.2016, 18:46
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

@Squeeeez:

Ok, IU can not do both at the same time. But if I de-register as self-employment, will I still be entitled the unemployment benefits from my previous job?

@RufusB:

What is that? I did not know anything about it. My clients are not in just one country, they are in many countries. What is the problem with that? There are no self-employed people who export services? Is it not permitted?
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:18
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

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@Squeeeez:

Ok, IU can not do both at the same time. But if I de-register as self-employment, will I still be entitled the unemployment benefits from my previous job?

@RufusB:

What is that? I did not know anything about it. My clients are not in just one country, they are in many countries. What is the problem with that? There are no self-employed people who export services? Is it not permitted?


ANobAG is an acronym for (hang on, need to Google) Arbeitnehmer ohne beitragspflichtigen Arbeitgeber’ which is Employee who doesn't work for a Swiss Company and therefore doesn't pay social security contributions as a result (my translation! )


I think it's not for self employed people, but for people who have contracts outside of CH. It's connected, as far as I understand it, to where you physically do the work, not where you bill/get paid from.
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:20
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

These may enlighten you.

Self employment for EU citizens.

Anobag - English form or translation
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:25
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV



Maybe not, tbh, the last one especially.


FYI there doesn't seem to be an English version of the form. However the lady I spoke with about it was very happy to talk me through the thing!
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:31
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

From the links, I get:

Anobag: Employee employed with a employer who dosenīt pay compulsory wage- by costs, meaning you are expected to pay for your own health insurance, your own taxes your own pension etc. etc.

However, I have multiple clients. I can show at least three, which is required to get the sole proprietorship status. One is in EU, the other two in the states. I do not perform tasks for them every month, so how can they be considered to be my 'employers'? Also, I am in the process of getting one more client.

I will pay my AHV, health insurance, pension (pillar 3) and taxes by myself. How does this differ from freelancer?
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:32
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

Well, I thought Slammer's warning might be relevant.

Here's the link for Zurich.

https://www.svazurich.ch/anobag
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Old 20.06.2016, 19:33
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

One of the threads - search ANOBAG in one of the advanced searches - details someone who went this route even though she considered herself to be self-employed, and was... determined to be self-employed. I'd ask them, seriously, this may be more straightforward than you think.
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Old 21.06.2016, 22:36
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

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Hi, guys, I have a question. Right now, I am working as a full time employee in a company and I also have a side project on which I am earning some money as freelancer (side line occupation). The prospect looks good, so I am thinking about quitting my job to work on this project on a full time basis.
What happens if things do not go as expected in the first 6-12 months? Will I still be entitled to RAV unemployment benefits? I have been working full time non-stop for the last 3.5 years, so if 6-12 months pass by and I see that things do not go as expected, will I still be entitled to unemployment benefits since I will have been working for 1-1.5 year in the last 2 years?

Also, is it possible to be receiving the unemployment benefits and keep the freelancer business if it is generating relatively low incomes until I find a new job? And in order to register on the RAV in this case, what is the start date of the applications I have to show? The date of resignation? The date I started being a freelancer? Or the date I decided to go to RAV? I am asking because I know that they are strict, but how can you be searching for a new job from the beginning just to show them that you have done your part if your intention is to build your own business?

Please note that my intention is not to abuse the RAV system, it is just my backup plan in case things go south.
If you quit your job, does this not mean you will have some penalties from the RAV? There is a scheme when unemployed where they give you time to build your own business. You can also do freelance work while unemployed. It's important to clarify what you would be entitled to exactly if you voluntarily leave your job and the effect being self employed would have on your RAV Payments (my understanding was that you could no longer claim).
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Old 21.06.2016, 22:37
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

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From the links, I get:

Anobag: Employee employed with a employer who dosenīt pay compulsory wage- by costs, meaning you are expected to pay for your own health insurance, your own taxes your own pension etc. etc.

However, I have multiple clients. I can show at least three, which is required to get the sole proprietorship status. One is in EU, the other two in the states. I do not perform tasks for them every month, so how can they be considered to be my 'employers'? Also, I am in the process of getting one more client.

I will pay my AHV, health insurance, pension (pillar 3) and taxes by myself. How does this differ from freelancer?
Are you officially recognized as a freelancer?
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Old 21.06.2016, 23:12
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

I contracted through MyCo GmbH with MrsNickatbasel as co-director.

When Mrsnickatbasel was made redundant from her day job, RAV asked about her directorship - I remember we got our lawyer to write RAV a nice letter to point out that her activities for the GmbH were not a barrier to finding a job, and that she got no remuneration from the company.

When I was out of contract for a while we were told the company would have to lay me off in order to claim RAV and we could keep the company dormant for in case a new gig came up.

This was in 2005 and IANAL.

Rgds,
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Old 22.06.2016, 10:23
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

My first post to the forum, so hello everyone.

Some additional things I know (from many years ago - so please do check) that may be helpful:

The amount you get from RAV is based on an average of earnings from a few preceding years

If you are an employee (not freelancer), get made redundant and are on RAV: if you decide to set up your business as self-employed you receive only a few more months continued support from RAV and then you are on your own.

Once set up and functioning, if you have an Einzelfirma (not a GmbH) you are not entitled to any support from RAV. You still pay social payments, however!

There is a way to do a little bit of work whilst on RAV but your earnings are deducted from the monthly payments, extending the days you are eligible.

HTH
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Old 25.06.2016, 15:17
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

@eireann:

Yes, I am aware that there are penalties. I do not wish to claim the benefits right away anyway. I want to focus on my own business. But I know that in order to be able to claim benefits, you need one year of employment in the last two years. So if let's say my business does not go good, can I start claiming money from RAV within one year of quitting? And if yes, I have to show 10 applications per month. When should I start sending those applications? Obviously not when I quit, because this kinda beats the whole purpose. Can I do it for example 9 months after I quit so that I can start claiming the benefits for one year? And if my business is not doing so well but is still generating some money, can I still run my business and reduce the money from RAV or is it either RAV or my business??

Also, I am not yet recognized as a freelancer, because I have not sent my application yet (Issued my first invoice 2 months ago, I know I have 3 months to do this, I will do it in the next few days). However, for the time being I will apply for a freelancer as a secondary occupation as I will still be employed by my company (although I will try to reduce to 50%).

@ zendancer:

Thanks for this, however, I am interested in going the other way round. I do not need RAV support from the moment I quit. I need to know if I am still entitled to RAV support one year after quitting, if my business does not go as expected, and if yes, can I still keep my business if it still generating some income so that the RAV payments are decreased and/or extended?

@ nickatbasel:

I am not sure I understand your point. Can you please explain a bit more?
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Old 25.06.2016, 17:12
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

Put it this way. Your RAV payments are based on your salary for the last 12 months. If you earn nothing for those 12 months then RAV will pay you - nothing. Also note that self-employed people are not insured against unemployment so that is a risk you have to take upon yourself.

https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home...-national.html

https://www.ch.ch/en/unemployment-ri...d-obligations/
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Old 26.06.2016, 09:11
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

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Well, I thought Slammer's warning might be relevant.

Here's the link for Zurich.

https://www.svazurich.ch/anobag
There you go..


C&P from older posts, I get to quote myself

Quote:
Suggestions? Yes one, ANOBAG bad! Seriously, ANOBAG baaaad!

Well you pay your own AHV, Arbeitnehmeranteil and your Arbeitgeberanteil and all the other stuff mentioned in the fine print and then some, it can work but only as a (very short) stop gap, I did it for over a year, scratching a meager living and turning every Rappen over twice.
I folded my hand middle of this year and claimed RAV but to do so I had to pay the MoaB to the AHV, now, despite a careful finance plan I have been left with newt, nada, nix.
So before you even buy yourself a beer you had better make sure that you put that money away for MoaB.

Anobag= Arbeitnehmer ohne beitragspflichtiger Arbeitgeber, Employee employed with a employer who dosenīt pay compulsory wage- by costs, meaning you are expected to pay for your own health insurance, your own taxes your own pension etc. etc.
Slammer has been there, done that still wondering what hit him, you can get a lot of idiot scars in Anobag
Either go whole hog and do a GbmH or get a job with a wage, Anobag is somewhere inbetween and baaaaad JuJu.
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Old 27.06.2016, 20:37
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Re: Self-Employed and RAV

My point was if you are working though an own GmbH the company will have to lay you off as an employee if you want to claim from RAV.

Forming GmbH's is quite expensive so you probably don't want to wind the company up while claiming RAV as you may want to use it if you manage to land another contracting gig.

RAV may question your directorship of said company even though you are no longer an employee. In which case it is wise to ask your lawyer to help navigate the way.

In our case, MrsNick and I were co-directors of the GmbH. She also worked at ABigPharmaCompany and got laid off. She claimed at RAV - and they questioned her directorship even though she received no income from the company and admin of the company was an occasional task. We got our lawyer to talk to RAV and convince them that her directorship did not constitute a barrier to finding work. She got her RAV money.

Rgds,
Nick

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@ nickatbasel:

I am not sure I understand your point. Can you please explain a bit more?
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