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Old 29.07.2016, 21:43
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Must propose new wage

Hello everyone,

first I have to say that my english is not that good anymore, since i started to learn german, but I'll do my best to explain my situation

I came to Switzerland 18 months ago. I found in July 2015 an internship in one smaller IT Company. Today was my last day of internship and I had a conversation with the boss. He said that they are they happy with me and would like to keep me. He said aswell that I must to think about the amout of my new wage until next week. I'm so confused..

I checked some CH Website with salaries and they are between 6000-9000 CHF.

I'm 20 years old, made the edjucation (High School) in EU Country for "informatiker - richtung: systemtechnik".
Yes, I am aware that i'm still young and I do not have lot of experience and I cannot expect probably 6000 CHF or more. I was thinking to suggest around 3500-4000.
What is Your opinion what should I suggest...

Thank You very much everyone for answers.
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Old 29.07.2016, 21:58
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Re: Must propose new wage

Well, 3500 sfr is the minimum wage , when you are working in the hotel industry as a steward or waiter.
Your job is worth a lot more, so ask for 5500 to 6000 sfr before tax.
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Old 29.07.2016, 22:00
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Re: Must propose new wage

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3500 sfr is the minimum wage
There is no minimum wage in Switzerland.

Tom
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Old 29.07.2016, 22:05
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Re: Must propose new wage

Don't be greedy, but at the same time don't undervalue yourself. Your first salary sets the stage for all your future salaries. If your research shows 6-9K I'd start somewhere in the middle so you have negotiating room.
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Old 30.07.2016, 07:14
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Re: Must propose new wage

In a small company, I'd guess something like 7000 for an entry level IT role at that age would be appropriate / common. But it depends on where the company is in Switzerland, too - rates will be higher in Zurich and less in Uri, I think.
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Old 30.07.2016, 07:23
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Re: Must propose new wage

I can't contribute a figure - although CHF9000 for a twenty year old sounds remarkable - but consider asking if they're willing to contribute / subsidise further education within your role. When you're still youthful you have time and energy to keep learning so bid mid-range and get agreements on them investing in you.

Good luck!
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Old 30.07.2016, 08:51
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Re: Must propose new wage

From recent experience, for someone with a masters degree, the entry level salary in both Basel and Zürich appears to be centre around 85K (so ~7K per month).

I'd recommend, given that you have experience and they already like you, going at 6K. If they ask you for justification, explain that your research suggested this amount was appropriate.
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Old 30.07.2016, 08:52
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Re: Must propose new wage

I would say 4'500 to 5'000 CHF.
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Old 30.07.2016, 09:05
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Re: Must propose new wage

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I would say 4'500 to 5'000 CHF.
Given your age I would say no more then 4'500.
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Old 30.07.2016, 09:14
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Re: Must propose new wage

take a look at other similar job adverts and what they are offering. maybe this will give you an idea. try applying for a few too.
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Old 30.07.2016, 09:54
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Re: Must propose new wage

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Given your age I would say no more then 4'500.
Considering the age and that the OP does not appear to have a university education or equivalent I would agree. But I would also try and get the company to commit to contributing to your further education (although be aware that this may require you to "chain" yourself to the company for a while).
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Old 30.07.2016, 10:00
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Re: Must propose new wage

Try sending your CV to a few placement agencies. If they contact you, ask them what they see as a reasonable figure for your qualifications in your area.

If they don't contact you, call them and start a conversation about prospects in your area, and ask about what these would pay.
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Old 30.07.2016, 11:05
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Re: Must propose new wage

HudaCH, don't listen to people who says "less than X because of your age". Your asking wage should be the value of your work and the profit that you bring to the company, not related to your age. You have already done a good job because they are willing to have you now as a full time employee, so the odds are on your favor.

Take into account also the supply and demand effect in the job market: if there are a lot of people available with the same skills, the salary will be lower. On the other hand, if in your area there aren't much people available, salary will be higher.

Have you done your research and you found 6000-9000? My guess is that this range refers to a position where 6000 is for "less experienced" and 9000 for "more experienced". What about other full time employees at the same company, can you guess their salaries? Try to narrow down a bit this range and ask your boss for the MAX of this range. Then hear your boss counter offer...

Contrary to what some EFers have said in this tread, you should never, ever ask the lower number on a salary negotiation. It's just plain stupid. Imagine that your boss had in mine a max of 6.5k but you ask 6k? He won't say "so, you know, I think you deserve 6.5k". On the other hand, if you ask 7.5k and he says "I can't pay that", than you can switch sides and ask "ok, how much can you pay then"? For instance, he may say "6k", although he is willing to pay as much as "6.5k"... So you can answer "what if we stay in the middle, 6.75k"?

In summary, try to have a very calibrated salary range for the position/experience/company and start the negotiation by asking the max of this range.
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Old 30.07.2016, 11:09
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Re: Must propose new wage

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I would say 4'500 to 5'000 CHF.
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Given your age I would say no more then 4'500.
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Considering the age and that the OP does not appear to have a university education or equivalent I would agree. But I would also try and get the company to commit to contributing to your further education (although be aware that this may require you to "chain" yourself to the company for a while).
What do you guys know about the OP skills to suggest that? He can be a 20-year old that just assembles computers and printers, or he can be already a very advanced programmer.
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Old 30.07.2016, 11:25
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Re: Must propose new wage

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HudaCH, don't listen to people who says "less than X because of your age". Your asking wage should be the value of your work and the profit that you bring to the company, not related to your age. You have already done a good job because they are willing to have you now as a full time employee, so the odds are on your favor.

Take into account also the supply and demand effect in the job market: if there are a lot of people available with the same skills, the salary will be lower. On the other hand, if in your area there aren't much people available, salary will be higher.

Have you done your research and you found 6000-9000? My guess is that this range refers to a position where 6000 is for "less experienced" and 9000 for "more experienced". What about other full time employees at the same company, can you guess their salaries? Try to narrow down a bit this range and ask your boss for the MAX of this range. Then hear your boss counter offer...

Contrary to what some EFers have said in this tread, you should never, ever ask the lower number on a salary negotiation. It's just plain stupid. Imagine that your boss had in mine a max of 6.5k but you ask 6k? He won't say "so, you know, I think you deserve 6.5k". On the other hand, if you ask 7.5k and he says "I can't pay that", than you can switch sides and ask "ok, how much can you pay then"? For instance, he may say "6k", although he is willing to pay as much as "6.5k"... So you can answer "what if we stay in the middle, 6.75k"?

In summary, try to have a very calibrated salary range for the position/experience/company and start the negotiation by asking the max of this range.
I agree with this logic. The OP needs to start at the upper limit of what is reasonable and work downwards, because he is sure not going to be able to do the opposite.

OP, I would start with 6000-6500 CHF per month (72-78k per annum) and take it from there. It sounds like they like you and want you so you have nothing to lose and all they can do is bring it down to a figure that would still be acceptable for your age.

Also practise a very good justification speech in your head with which you can look them in the eye and tell them why you are worth the money and got it compares to industry standards. Trust me, they will appreciate the confidence and careful research even if the final figures will be lower.
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Old 30.07.2016, 11:30
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Re: Must propose new wage

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What do you guys know about the OP skills to suggest that? He can be a 20-year old that just assembles computers and printers, or he can be already a very advanced programmer.
Unfortunately, in many cases the actual skill set has nothing to do with it. Swiss companies tend to have salary bands that reflect age, education and length of service. Having been involved in recruitment for a large Swiss company I can tell you that the fact that the OP does not have a university or an equivalent diploma will affect his salary level at his age. Once he has been with the company for 10 years and he has proven his value, that is a different matter.

Of course, it is unfair for the company to ask him to name his salary expectations. It would be interesting to know what he was being paid as an intern. That would have given us some indication as to whether the company he is working for is a generous payer or on the cheap side.

It would also be more valuable to get a commitment at this stage for covering further education (both from a financial and a time perspective) than a higher salary as this is an investment which will pay for itself in the future. It is also better from a tax perspective...

But hey, the OP came on here asking for opinions. Each of the contributors here has had different experiences that will shape their opinions and which they give on here free of charge for the OP to do with what he/she wants. I don't think that really warrants a or the groans that have been distributed here.
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Old 30.07.2016, 11:41
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Re: Must propose new wage

If the employer has already said they would like to keep you go high rather than low then negotiate. They won't say goodbye because they think you asked for too much.
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Old 30.07.2016, 14:33
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Re: Must propose new wage

Hello guys,

oh my god.. I can't believe how many answer I received. I didn't expect that, but thank You everyone once again. I would like to answer now on some of your questions..

About my experience and what exactly I'm doing: Our company has costumers in different sectors (medical, banks, architects ..) and we are making IT support for them. Basicly from client to the server, whole network. I'm able to solve 90% of problems on my own, no matter if that is server or firewall side problem or just some small Problem with Outlook.

My wage during the internship was about 1000 CHF, but I didn't asked for that. At the beginning I said that I would also work for no wage, because for me was important to gain new skills and experience.

I've done some more Research today again and found a nice tool from bfs.admin.ch. Their calculator is saying that my salary should be about 4,6k because of my age and not a lot of experience.

You know, for me is of course important salary but maybe more important is that I improve myself everyday and learn new things, but I still don't wanna work for nothing. And also I know that 20 years old guy who made edjucation in another country, with just a year of experience and still learning german will find really hard a new job.. Heavy decision.

Once again thank You everyone on all your answers and sorry for mistakes in my english.
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Old 30.07.2016, 15:38
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Re: Must propose new wage

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They why are you even posting about other people's groans? That's even worse.
I'm feeling social today
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Old 30.07.2016, 18:42
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Re: Must propose new wage

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He is fully entitled to groan any post he disagrees with, so just be an adult and deal with it.
You are correct. What's up recently? Someone transfuse your blood for lemon juice? It's like licking nettles reading some of your posts. As you're an adult, you can deal with such commentary, right handsome?

OP, you seem to have a balanced sense of what you'd like. Honestly, a 20 year old asking CHF9000 would be laughed at in most cases and anyone who hires has countless stories of snowflake millenials thinking they're worth it.

It may come as a surprise to some but work isn't just about a salary. You'll be fine being yourself ...and best of luck in your career.
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