Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08.12.2016, 06:07
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Proposal for going contracting

Dear all,
I live in Zurich and work as Java developer, permanent. I've a B permit.

I got an offer for another job through an agency where they propose initially to work as contractor for 6 months for 750 CHF a day (gross) then getting a permanent role with their clients (and this sounds weird to me).

They sent me a calculation where it turns out that from the initial 15k per month gross (20 days * 750 CHF) I should get slightly more than 10k net per month.

Now it sounds not too bad, I'm getting few thousands less per month now as permanent, but what else should I take into account (a part from no holidays)?

Also searching in the forum looks like that 750 CHF a day is not such a good rate, how much should be the salary for the same permanent job for compare it? 130k perhaps?

Thanks in advance to everybody.
Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08.12.2016, 08:56
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,541
Groaned at 193 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 18,099 Times in 7,374 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

I normally multiply day rate by 100 to get yearly perm salary. So 750 -> 75K. As you say, it's not that good a rate.

You don't get holiday, sickness and you may have to pay your own insurances. The employer's share of social contributions will come out of your fee, as will pension contributions.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #3  
Old 08.12.2016, 09:14
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 15
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 8 Times in 3 Posts
November has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Hi there,

How many years of experience do you have? It does make a big difference I think!

This can also help you: https://www.experis.ch/java-jobs

The rates are often displayed when you check the jobs so it gives you a good idea.

Good luck!
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08.12.2016, 09:56
JoeUK's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Au
Posts: 632
Groaned at 30 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 822 Times in 444 Posts
JoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputation
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
I normally multiply day rate by 100 to get yearly perm salary. So 750 -> 75K. As you say, it's not that good a rate.

You don't get holiday, sickness and you may have to pay your own insurances. The employer's share of social contributions will come out of your fee, as will pension contributions.
Your assertions are far too general. I've worked with a multitude of contractors/agencies, some pay holiday, some don't. Same with sickness etc. And why 100 days?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08.12.2016, 10:23
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
Hi there,

How many years of experience do you have? It does make a big difference I think!

This can also help you: https://www.experis.ch/java-jobs

The rates are often displayed when you check the jobs so it gives you a good idea.

Good luck!
Thanks for the reply, I've 10 years of experience.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08.12.2016, 10:27
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
I normally multiply day rate by 100 to get yearly perm salary. So 750 -> 75K. As you say, it's not that good a rate.

You don't get holiday, sickness and you may have to pay your own insurances. The employer's share of social contributions will come out of your fee, as will pension contributions.
Interesting rule of thumb, so for 130k I should ask 1300 chf a day? I don't think it sounds realistic, does it?

Thanks

Last edited by kelvin273; 08.12.2016 at 10:52.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08.12.2016, 10:55
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,541
Groaned at 193 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 18,099 Times in 7,374 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
Your assertions are far too general. I've worked with a multitude of contractors/agencies, some pay holiday, some don't. Same with sickness etc. And why 100 days?
It's just a rule of thumb for easy reckoning. It's supposed to be general. If your agency pays holiday, it comes out of your fee. I.e. you pay for your holiday - and any other "benefits".

Obviously the exact amount depends on your skill, experience, skill set, industry sector, current market conditions... you might want to consider the value of the package rather than salary. If you're on 130K, then you should be looking at 1300 a day. You might have to settle on 1100. But you'll know that 900 is probably a bit low.

Years ago I went from 500 a day to a 50K salary. I've also gone from a 140K salary to 1400 a day. YMMV.
__________________
Down with racism. Long live miscegenation!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08.12.2016, 15:08
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 464
Groaned at 16 Times in 14 Posts
Thanked 226 Times in 136 Posts
poot is considered knowledgeablepoot is considered knowledgeablepoot is considered knowledgeable
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
I normally multiply day rate by 100 to get yearly perm salary. So 750 -> 75K. As you say, it's not that good a rate.

You don't get holiday, sickness and you may have to pay your own insurances. The employer's share of social contributions will come out of your fee, as will pension contributions.
That's no way accurate.

750/day gross is fairly solid in today's market, and would be paid to a person with an ability to command well over 75k for a perm salary.

That said, the '10k net a month' is too vague- what about employer pension contributions? Bonus? Other benefits?

I'd say a perm job on about 110-120k, with a smallish bonus & fair employer pension contribution would be around similar to 750/day as contractor.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08.12.2016, 15:30
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 12,541
Groaned at 193 Times in 170 Posts
Thanked 18,099 Times in 7,374 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
It's just a rule of thumb for easy reckoning....Obviously the exact amount depends on your skill, experience, skill set, industry sector, current market conditions...YMMV.
For some it will by 50x, for other 150x. If you want to use a different factor - go for it. Make some suggestions as what you think is a better number.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank NotAllThere for this useful post:
  #10  
Old 08.12.2016, 17:02
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,163
Groaned at 168 Times in 143 Posts
Thanked 6,568 Times in 2,977 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
Interesting rule of thumb, so for 130k I should ask 1300 chf a day? I don't think it sounds realistic, does it?
Thanks
You need to remember that agency contracts are designed to put as much money into your hands as possible. That does not mean they are the best deal for you. Particularly when it comes to loss of income, accident, incapacity and old age pensions.

Back in the day I required a minimum of CHF105 per hour to equal an employee salary of CHF8.5K so by those standards you'd to be receiving closer to 17K per month. Of course if the objective is just to collect as much cash as possible then that is a different matter.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08.12.2016, 17:39
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
That said, the '10k net a month' is too vague- what about employer pension contributions? Bonus? Other benefits?.
It's stated 400 a month for the employer pension contribution.

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08.12.2016, 17:42
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
You need to remember that agency contracts are designed to put as much money into your hands as possible. That does not mean they are the best deal for you. Particularly when it comes to loss of income, accident, incapacity and old age pensions.
This is a very interesting point, can you please elaborate or pass me a link for this details?

Many thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08.12.2016, 19:08
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Basel
Posts: 1,913
Groaned at 47 Times in 38 Posts
Thanked 1,130 Times in 678 Posts
Landers has an excellent reputationLanders has an excellent reputationLanders has an excellent reputationLanders has an excellent reputation
Re: Proposal for going contracting

I think again we need to differentiate between "headline rate" that the agency charges the client and the "gross salary equivalent" rate etc. One will be very different to the other. Some agencies will tell you the headline rate others (like HAYS) will tell you the gross salary rate, which may or may not include vacation. You need to also consider pension contributions. Some will offer a high amount and others the minimum.

As for perm vs contract rates it depends on which sector you're in. In my field 100 is way off but then contract rates have reduced in recent years. It might have been true 10 years ago but since then salaries have increased but contract rates have decreased (in my field).
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08.12.2016, 19:37
curley's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: canton ZH
Posts: 11,485
Groaned at 183 Times in 151 Posts
Thanked 12,903 Times in 6,746 Posts
curley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond reputecurley has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

[QUOTE=kelvin273;2704302]Interesting rule of thumb, so for 130k I should ask 1300 chf a day?/QUOTE]
absolutely

Why does this thread seem so familiar?
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank curley for this useful post:
  #15  
Old 08.12.2016, 19:44
Jim2007's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 4,163
Groaned at 168 Times in 143 Posts
Thanked 6,568 Times in 2,977 Posts
Jim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond reputeJim2007 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
This is a very interesting point, can you please elaborate or pass me a link for this details?

Many thanks.
No links, it just the experience of 20+ years and the fact that I'm also an accountant.

If you take a loot at the typical pension contract for an employee versus an agency pension you'll see that the just about meet legal requirements rather than pay a decent pension and so on
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 09.12.2016, 18:39
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Thank you all for the replies, in fact this proposal is not that good.

Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 13.12.2016, 23:46
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Zurich
Posts: 362
Groaned at 58 Times in 27 Posts
Thanked 231 Times in 130 Posts
Dandy is considered unworthyDandy is considered unworthyDandy is considered unworthy
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
If you take a loot at the typical pension contract for an employee versus an agency pension you'll see that the just about meet legal requirements rather than pay a decent pension and so on
This I can confirm, I also did contracting through two different agencies and the pension contribution was really the absoulte legal minimum. When I was working permanent, it was much more, not only a few thousands but something like 15k-20k more per year and my daily rate was not exceptional (850-900 CHF) as is now my salary as permanent.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 19.12.2016, 18:57
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Zurich
Posts: 35
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 3 Times in 3 Posts
kelvin273 has no particular reputation at present
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
This I can confirm, I also did contracting through two different agencies and the pension contribution was really the absoulte legal minimum. When I was working permanent, it was much more, not only a few thousands but something like 15k-20k more per year and my daily rate was not exceptional (850-900 CHF) as is now my salary as permanent.
How much is the absolute minimum?
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 19.12.2016, 19:04
fatmanfilms's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Verbier
Posts: 19,067
Groaned at 392 Times in 297 Posts
Thanked 18,903 Times in 10,183 Posts
fatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond reputefatmanfilms has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
How much is the absolute minimum?
Income between 24,675 - 84,600 is pensionable, so the insured salary has a max of 59,925.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 19.12.2016, 19:19
JoeUK's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Au
Posts: 632
Groaned at 30 Times in 26 Posts
Thanked 822 Times in 444 Posts
JoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputationJoeUK has an excellent reputation
Re: Proposal for going contracting

Quote:
View Post
This I can confirm, I also did contracting through two different agencies and the pension contribution was really the absoulte legal minimum. When I was working permanent, it was much more, not only a few thousands but something like 15k-20k more per year and my daily rate was not exceptional (850-900 CHF) as is now my salary as permanent.
Same. But with the extra earned the shortfall was easily made up and I had far more in 'the Kasse' than I had as a 'valued member of staff' but I acknowledge every case is different.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Proposal for a do it yourself moto garage. vagmakr Transportation/driving 15 09.11.2016 14:50
A new proposal for the forum Disappunto Forum support 7 05.02.2014 20:43
Medical Insurance Proposal for a Swiss Student Visa More Insurance 3 01.04.2012 18:48
Proposal: New name for Swissies? bails General off-topic 41 11.01.2007 20:03


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:23.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0