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  #21  
Old 02.03.2017, 17:56
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Re: Hopeless?

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Do you hire senior IT people in Zurich? Because I do and it's very very difficult to find good local talent...
I have had the opportunity to visit a reasonable amount of Swiss banks IT departments as part of my job, and the vast majority of Info Sec workers I have met are Swiss. I also know of a major Swiss bank that recently hired an American as one of their CISO's.

I didn't say it was always easy or quick to find local talent in every instance, but I would say that the locally-based talent does exist without needing to go through the hassle of sponsor someone who is non-EU.
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  #22  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:14
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Re: Hopeless?

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I have had the opportunity to visit a reasonable amount of Swiss banks IT departments as part of my job, and the vast majority of Info Sec workers I have met are Swiss. I also know of a major Swiss bank that recently hired an American as one of their CISO's.

I didn't say it was always easy or quick to find local talent in every instance, but I would say that the locally-based talent does exist without needing to go through the hassle of sponsor someone who is non-EU.
Your posts are more tiring than actual work, so I might stop EF for the day...
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  #23  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:18
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Re: Hopeless?

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From recent reports in the press, it seems that Google et.al are gobbling-up all the non-EU L and B permits.
So, the best chance is probably to get hired by Google in a field that is worked-on in Zurich (maps is one, IIRC) and then get transferred here.

Google HR here probably has the Zurich immigration office on short-dial....
Very much doubt that Google would consider these qualifications - their janitors are outsourced and professional
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  #24  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:42
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Re: Hopeless?

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Your posts are more tiring than actual work, so I might stop EF for the day...
Probably for the best, as you seem to throw your toys out of the pram whenever someone has an opposing opinion.

I'm not saying you're wrong, your experience is your own, I'm just saying IT and Info Sec people I have met are pre-dominantly Swiss, or at least already in the EU. It's not often you need to hire externally and go through the hassle of sponsoring a non-EU for that kind of role unless it's very high level. It's a relatively and increasingly popular career choice in CH and Europe.

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  #25  
Old 02.03.2017, 18:54
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Re: Hopeless?

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IT security is actually a hot topic these days and I could imagine you find an employer willing to sponsort your work permit.
I'm an American working as a CISO in Switzerland. Hiring a couple more people too, but I need excellent German skills on my team. It's certainly possible. Yes, you're at the back of the line for permits, but I've been hiring people in the field here for five years or more, and I can tell you that the skills shortage Treverus referenced is a big factor in your favor.

Just find the right role and apply. Be aware, though, that due to a variety of cultural and procedural hurdles, we tend to look for "mr right" out here - we don't want to go through the same process again soon. So you won't have near as many bites per CV submission as you might be accustomed to.
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Old 02.03.2017, 21:33
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Re: Hopeless?

Instead of janitoring, you probably have better chances by finding a swiss girlfriend and then marrying her.
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Old 02.03.2017, 21:45
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Re: Hopeless?

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Instead of janitoring, you probably have better chances by finding a swiss girlfriend and then marrying her.
Isn't there a woman here that was just asking about dating and meeting decent guys??
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  #28  
Old 02.03.2017, 22:39
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Re: Hopeless?

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Isn't there a woman here that was just asking about dating and meeting decent guys??
I think that she may be well out of your league to be honest...
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  #29  
Old 03.03.2017, 12:33
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Re: Hopeless?

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Do you hire senior IT people in Zurich? Because I do and it's very very difficult to find good local talent...
Is that good local talent or good local, under-a-certain-age-and-at-a-good-price talent?
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  #30  
Old 03.03.2017, 12:40
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Re: Hopeless?

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Is that good local talent or good local, under-a-certain-age-and-at-a-good-price talent?
1. I dont think my employer cares about age.

2. Price is frankly indeed a topic: We are a services company and the market rates in Switzerland have dropped over the last decade thanks to certain low-ballers from low cost countries. The company is not a charity, so we can only pay according to what we manage to bill to clients. Simply put: it depends on your market worth and yes - if we cannot make money off you will we not hire you. That's how business works.
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  #31  
Old 03.03.2017, 12:58
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Re: Hopeless?

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1. I dont think my employer cares about age.
While I cannot speak about your specific employer, IT in Switzerland is rife with ageism and you don't have to search long to find jobs advertised that openly give age ceilings, so if your own employer does not follow such a policy, they are regrettable becoming the exception rather than the rule.
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2. Price is frankly indeed a topic: We are a services company and the market rates in Switzerland have dropped over the last decade thanks to certain low-ballers from low cost countries. The company is not a charity, so we can only pay according to what we manage to bill to clients. Simply put: it depends on your market worth and yes - if we cannot make money off you will we not hire you. That's how business works.
The problem with this is it has created an unsustainable situation in many industries and parts of the country. For example, why hire a local resident in Ticino when an Italian can come over the border for literally half the salary or less? And unless your market does not in any way depend on that local one, you're going to be in trouble sooner or later, in no small part down to your own making - there's competitive, and then there's taking the p**s, I'm afraid.

That's the problem with microeconomics; it often ignores the bigger picture that comes with macroeconomics.
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  #32  
Old 03.03.2017, 14:37
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Re: Hopeless?

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While I cannot speak about your specific employer, IT in Switzerland is rife with ageism and you don't have to search long to find jobs advertised that openly give age ceilings, so if your own employer does not follow such a policy, they are regrettable becoming the exception rather than the rule.
I am aware of it and agree, but had the feeling that at least 50% of it is due to the legal situation where older employees simply cost you way more than younger ones. Just as you said with your example of the Italian, the same is true with age: Why hire a 50+ year old project manager if you can get a 35 year old who costs way less social insurances, so you can even give him a better pay and keep him happy?


Blaming the employers on this is silly - Switzerland is the most direct democratic country of all and older people tend to vote more - I have honestly no idea why they don't fix this...

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The problem with this is it has created an unsustainable situation in many industries and parts of the country. For example, why hire a local resident in Ticino when an Italian can come over the border for literally half the salary or less? And unless your market does not in any way depend on that local one, you're going to be in trouble sooner or later, in no small part down to your own making - there's competitive, and then there's taking the p**s, I'm afraid.

That's the problem with microeconomics; it often ignores the bigger picture that comes with macroeconomics.


In IT services for MNCs do I not compete with guys just across the border. I compete with "I can get a guy in Spain or Poland who works for 40 EUR an hour and don't get me started on India". My experience is that overall you get what you pay for and a lot of Swiss companies learned their lessons. They are however not going back to the day rates of the boom years... and I for one when I am totally honest found some of the day rates that were paid to lower end IT staff a decade ago rather bizarre. So no, you won't get 120k for a junior IT role without experience. And I am not sure if that really is a bad thing...
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  #33  
Old 03.03.2017, 14:54
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Re: Hopeless?

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I am aware of it and agree, but had the feeling that at least 50% of it is due to the legal situation where older employees simply cost you way more than younger ones.
The difference in cost legally is only about 2-3%, so it's a bit of red herring. Of course, older employees might be able to demand, or expect, higher salaries and are less likely to do 60+ hour weeks, and that may be closer to the reason why.
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Blaming the employers on this is silly - Switzerland is the most direct democratic country of all and older people tend to vote more - I have honestly no idea why they don't fix this...
I never suggested I was blaming the employers... at least not the employers alone, there's no monopoly on idiocy here. I was noting an irony more than anything else.
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Old 03.03.2017, 15:11
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Re: Hopeless?

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are less likely to do 60+ hour weeks, and that may be closer to the reason why.
Funny though, in the company I work for itīs the younger ones that want to work less hours and leave exactly on time
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  #35  
Old 03.03.2017, 17:57
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Re: Hopeless?

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Funny though, in the company I work for itīs the younger ones that want to work less hours and leave exactly on time
Don't get me started on that, otherwise I'll write a novel filled with "in my days...", and I am not even THAT old!

Just a few days ago I had a lengthy discussion with a very junior staff who has been with us for about 6 months on why he cannot take a 4-week long hiking trip to Peru in our peak month/busiest time of the year.

I wanted to say: dude, be happy you have a job in this market!, but I held my tongue and calmly explained that it would be a better idea to take the trip at a different time of the year, which I fully support.

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  #36  
Old 03.03.2017, 18:05
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Re: Hopeless?

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Funny though, in the company I work for itīs the younger ones that want to work less hours and leave exactly on time
Me, I just get home and contemplate whether suicide would be a better alternative (nope - made a negative decision a while ago - don't worry). Still re-occurs but no threat...
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  #37  
Old 03.03.2017, 18:21
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Re: Hopeless?

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Don't get me started on that, otherwise I'll write a novel filled with "in my days...", and I am not even THAT old!
To be fair to the youngsters... I have at least equally often the "but we have never done it this way" talk with older colleagues. I really have to stop myself at times from saying "just because you managed to get a salary while being useless for the past decade does not mean you can continue to do so..."
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  #38  
Old 03.03.2017, 20:14
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Re: Hopeless?

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To be fair to the youngsters... I have at least equally often the "but we have never done it this way" talk with older colleagues. I really have to stop myself at times from saying "just because you managed to get a salary while being useless for the past decade does not mean you can continue to do so..."
I don't stop myself. It's called a preview of their upcoming performance review.
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  #39  
Old 03.03.2017, 20:18
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Re: Hopeless?

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I don't stop myself. It's called a preview of their upcoming performance review.
And yet, if I compare older colleagues vs young'uns, as a performance reviewer for both, generally speaking my experience has been that the older colleagues are a bit quicker to come around to reason. Generally speaking
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  #40  
Old 03.03.2017, 22:16
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Re: Hopeless?

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To be fair to the youngsters... I have at least equally often the "but we have never done it this way" talk with older colleagues. I really have to stop myself at times from saying "just because you managed to get a salary while being useless for the past decade does not mean you can continue to do so..."
And then us older types have to point out that "we have always done it this way because your stupid new idea won't work, as we tried it 30 years ago".

Tom
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