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  #21  
Old 01.03.2017, 12:21
Medea Fleecestealer's Avatar
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Oh I didn't check out the other thread yet.

Well then OP what is it you want?

If you receive that kind of package, you should be more than happy. And then it's also clearly a redundancy, even if they rehire - not your problem. Obviously the "no legal action" clause now makes sense too.

Is this being paid out as a one-off severance payment or will you be paid monthly for another 12 months? This will likely have implications on your ability to claim unemployment money.
Severance payment - which is the most generous one I've heard or read about.
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  #22  
Old 01.03.2017, 13:04
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Severance payment - which is the most generous one I've heard or read about.


Absolutely! And I was already so happy with my - in total - 8 months!
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Old 01.03.2017, 13:13
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Severance payment - which is the most generous one I've heard or read about.
I work at the wrong place

Ours is already pretty generous, but requires to continue to work/be available for work, i.e. no one-off payment/severance (well a tiny one on top of the long notice period with salary).

Well, guess then he can indeed start applying for new jobs and get unemployment money on top of that immediate payment of one annual salary
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  #24  
Old 01.03.2017, 13:21
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Absolutely! And I was already so happy with my - in total - 8 months!
Was this with a Swiss based company?
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Old 01.03.2017, 13:51
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Was this with a Swiss based company?
Not roegner obvs, but our Swiss-based company pays for about the same amount of time (in form of a notice period, not a severance, see above). That is only in case of mass redundancy of course - and redundancy is often spread out across several months so as to avoid payment...

I've heard of other Swiss companies (most notably the two big banks) that have a similar package. Though it's usually just MNCs and rare to be found in smaller companies, let alone local ones. I also personally know several people who took the package, had a sweet time off, then came back in another job at the same company...
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Old 01.03.2017, 14:00
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Was this with a Swiss based company?


Swiss based US company, 6 months for 6 years of service and additional 2 months because I left before my notice period ran out.
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  #27  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:01
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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it's also clearly a redundancy
What's a redundancy, and what difference does it make?



Tom
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  #28  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:19
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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What's a redundancy, and what difference does it make?

Tom
Redundancy = elimination of a position or no work being available anymore (on paper anyway)

It makes a substantial difference. In case of redundancy, if above a certain %age of employees - in case of major reorganization/restructuring, for example - companies in CH are obliged to create a social plan of sorts, consult with workers' council and local authorities etc.

In case of "we just don't want you anymore for whatever reason if there is no reason", companies don't have to do the above and can just terminate contracts.

Some "clever" companies spread out their mass redundancy over a few months, so that the number of terminations each month don't exceed a certain legal threshold and they don't have to provide a social plan...
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Old 01.03.2017, 14:25
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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This is all you need to know.
Makes zero sense to me.
Yes of course it makes sense... for example if the OP is sick at any stage during the the notice period, the notice period will have to be extended. And heaven forbid, but if the OP became incapacitated it would most likely be extended for up to two years at a maximum or until he is awarded incapacity benefits.
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  #30  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:27
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Redundancy = elimination of a position or no work being available anymore (on paper anyway)

It makes a substantial difference. In case of redundancy, if above a certain %age of employees - in case of major reorganization/restructuring, for example - companies in CH are obliged to create a social plan of sorts, consult with workers' council and local authorities etc.

In case of "we just don't want you anymore for whatever reason if there is no reason", companies don't have to do the above and can just terminate contracts.

Some "clever" companies spread out their mass redundancy over a few months, so that the number of terminations each month don't exceed a certain legal threshold and they don't have to provide a social plan...
In Swiss law there is no concept of individual redundancy - only mass redundancy which is covered by specific rules.

If HR said it was "redundancy" as the OP stated, they can still fill that role with someone else in an equivalent role already at the company - basically a reorganisation combined with size reduction - they just can't hire someone new.
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  #31  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:34
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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In Swiss law there is no concept of individual redundancy - only mass redundancy which is covered by specific rules.
Many companies, esp. MNCs, develop social plans for a longer period of time, as they're expecting fundamental reorganizations. For example ours has been active for over 5 years now... So even if it's not a "mass" at a given time, everybody who's being made redundant during that same time will be given the social plan. Even if it's just one person at a time and they claim it's a redundancy, which it only sort of is. I suspect this is the case.

And yes, this is why there is a difference between redundancy and termination, though we've had that discussion fifteen times here already.

As said, this is on paper. In reality, it's often more wishy-washy.


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Yes of course it makes sense... for example if the OP is sick at any stage during the the notice period, the notice period will have to be extended. And heaven forbid, but if the OP became incapacitated it would most likely be extended for up to two years at a maximum or until he is awarded incapacity benefits.
That is a legal regulation that doesn't need spelling out, really.

Also, the notice period will never be extended for 2 years. The continuation of payment might, under certain circumstances of course, but the employment will be terminated after 6 months of absence even in severe cases (unless you work for a very generous, sympathetic employer of course). Two different things.
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  #32  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:44
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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This is all you need to know.
Seriously, where did this ridiculous phrase come from?

All the English speaking papers and websites seem to use it, like they're the single source of truth and don't you dare question their word.

And now we get it on EF!
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  #33  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:49
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Redundancy = elimination of a position or no work being available anymore.
A concept that doesn't exist in the Italian language (nor US English).

Interesting.

Tom
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  #34  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:54
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Seriously, where did this ridiculous phrase come from?

All the English speaking papers and websites seem to use it, like they're the single source of truth and don't you dare question their word.

And now we get it on EF!
Because sometimes there simply is only one relevant (and correct) answer. Even if that disappoints you. Has nothing to do with "questioning anyone's word".

This situation here is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of what holds up legally and what doesn't.
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  #35  
Old 01.03.2017, 14:56
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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A concept that doesn't exist in the Italian language (nor US English).

Interesting.

Tom
Actually US would simply call it being laid off which is the same thing. You're either fired or laid off - terminated or made redundant.
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Old 01.03.2017, 14:57
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Because sometimes there simply is only one relevant (and correct) answer. Even if that disappoints you. Has nothing to do with "questioning anyone's word".

This situation here is not a matter of opinion, it's a matter of what holds up legally and what doesn't.
Indeed - and your answer is always correct, and you will keep defending it endlessly and with longer and longer responses with multiple quotes on every thread in which you participate...

ps. Maybe you could just post everything we need to know first, then you don't have to keep repeating yourself?
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  #37  
Old 01.03.2017, 15:09
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Actually US would simply call it being laid off which is the same thing. You're either fired or laid off - terminated or made redundant.
Fired = laid-off, no real difference.

In Italian, it licenziato, or licenziato, no difference whatsoever.

Tom
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  #38  
Old 01.03.2017, 16:15
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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I have a week to find another job within company they will revoke the termination. It is possible to do that .
You need to take this into account if you intend to be difficult about signing their waver.
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1. I have many questions about what I signed... and clarifying with HR. I have some interviews within company so I am asking them to give me time till end of march month. Should I forecefully tear the papers I signed and say in panic I have signed and we have many things to clarify...
No. As a rule of thumb being a drama queen makes for a bad strategy. If you feel you have a case against them I would ask that you have the paper reviewed by a solicitor first, but you're happy to sign something only acknowledging receipt of the termination. Then go consult a solicitor (you mention you have Rechtsschutz - most allow for free consultation in cases of labour law).
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3. Even if I have signed does it mean I can not do anything?
I would make it a lot harder to sue if you wanted to. Question is do you want to take legal action for some reason and is there a good chance you'd get anywhere if you did? To refuse or delay signing (and you're under no obligation to sign a legal waver just because they want you to) might affect your chances of getting another job internally, after all. On the other hand is there any good reason for being a legal hawk?
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4.The reason give is redundancy. but I was told by HR that they will announce a new person for the same position shortly.. so actually it is not redundancy..
Could still be redundancy - your replacement could be cheaper, for example...
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5. They can not say based on performance as well.. Again they did not mention it and also have hidden the yearly performance summary till now.
My understanding is that once they say redundancy they are not saying that it is performance related - or at least that it is not your fault if it is. Either way redundancy should cover you with the RAV.
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6. I do have legal expenses insurance with AXA-ARAG. SHould I use them?
If the policy covers you and you intend to take legal action.

TBH, my gut feeling is that like many HR departments they are covering their legal asses to the point that they are coming across as quite heavy handed. Meanwhile not being used to this level of litigiousness, you're in a bit of a panic and thinking of going straight to DefCon 1. In reality it's probably nothing personal and you're just a nameless cog they feel neither good nor ill will for, and you're better off concentrating on finding another job internally.

Of course, that's my gut feeling, not legal advice.
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  #39  
Old 01.03.2017, 16:37
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

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Indeed - and your answer is always correct, and you will keep defending it endlessly and with longer and longer responses with multiple quotes on every thread in which you participate...

ps. Maybe you could just post everything we need to know first, then you don't have to keep repeating yourself?
I know, right? It's fantastic

Maybe, just maybe, I actually do know a thing or two about employment rules, regulations and laws and how they are applied in practice and what can be done and can't be done. Actually, I know three or four things, but I guess years and years of experience in this field and this country count for nothing and my "opinion" is just wrong. That's ok, I really couldn't care less what you think. For all I care, everyone can try to sue their employer here for whatever they want - see how that works out...

Ciao for now.
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Old 01.03.2017, 18:07
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Re: termination letter and legal options. URGENT

https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...ndex.html#a341

H. No right of waiver; time limits

1 For the period of the employment relationship and for one month after its end, the employee may not waive claims arising from mandatory provisions of law or the mandatory provisions of a collective employment contract.


This being said you can always enter into a settlement agreement which is balanced. For details consult your neighborhood labor law lawyer...
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