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  #21  
Old 17.07.2017, 13:27
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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On the other hand, why do you need to check the nationality at recruitment level?
The requirement is clear, in Switzerland, it's about having a "valid work permit". Not about nationality. And yes, without work permit, then and only then, it matters.
Compare the employees' nationalities at Aldi vs Migros. The one with Swiss roots also has a much higher share of Swiss-sounding employees.

In order to portray itself in a believable manner as "Swiss" a company needs to ensure its "face" supports that claim.
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  #22  
Old 17.07.2017, 13:38
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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A long time ago, i had a friend who had a civil engineering company.

He hired a lot of Croatian workers who were fine

He then hired some Sebian guys, which resulted in

Big mess, gratuitous violence, damages to equipment, total lack of communication, so this is why nationality is important sometimes.

Croats and Serbs still don't mix very well, they curdle usually....
That is absurd/flawed logic and why there are discrimination based on nationality.
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  #23  
Old 17.07.2017, 13:43
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Compare the employees' nationalities at Aldi vs Migros. The one with Swiss roots also has a much higher share of Swiss-sounding employees.

In order to portray itself in a believable manner as "Swiss" a company needs to ensure its "face" supports that claim.
You can see the "face" during the interview. And yes, if the "look" is not suitable for their strategy, they can choose not to hire them.

Logic flaw, again, as some "dos santos" could look very Swiss, and could speak much better than native Swiss.

Again we are in the field of assumptions and appearances, the "way the name look on paper". Yet in shops, you hardly see the first name tags, when you find an employee- Which can perfectly be "Maria" for a Swiss, or whatever origin.

So no, I still don't see, in that example, a valid justification.
I know a few, like for legal reasons, or business travel, but they are specific.
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  #24  
Old 17.07.2017, 13:46
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Re: How to land a job in CH

Personally, I prefer people who are honest. If someone's lying on a CV and I find out about it (which is very likely, sooner or later), I will of course wonder what else they will lie about or have already lied about. I have no interest in working with dishonest opportunists and would simply never trust them with anything, which is not exactly the basis for a good working relationship.

Aside from that, that stupid nationality thing keeps coming up here, when in reality, there's very likely other reasons someone is not being considered, one of them being that, contrary to most countries, Switzerland has a HIGHLY competitive work environment with tons of very qualified, high-skilled people (not only from Switzerland). The other being bad at interviews or simply not fulfilling some criteria for the job.

If they want someone to speak a local language fluently, it is their damn right to ask for that - matter of fact, it's pretty common in every country to expect applicants to speak the language, if only to be able to converse with other team members. Who knows, it may not always be crucial to the job itself (though in most cases it still is), but if a team has 9 German-speakers, then why exactly would they go for someone who doesn't speak German at all, only for the other 9 to have to adapt absolutely everything including, for instance, the way they hold meetings? Which country or company would adapt to me, just because I can't be bothered to learn the local language? This type of thinking is simply pure arrogance.

I never ceases to amaze me that some people seem to think the world owes them something.
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  #25  
Old 17.07.2017, 13:54
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Compare the employees' nationalities at Aldi vs Migros. The one with Swiss roots also has a much higher share of Swiss-sounding employees.

In order to portray itself in a believable manner as "Swiss" a company needs to ensure its "face" supports that claim.
Nonsense. The OH works for a Swiss family run company (into the 3rd generation now) which has 58 different nationalities working for it, most of whom are not Swiss.
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  #26  
Old 17.07.2017, 14:49
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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You can see the "face" during the interview. And yes, if the "look" is not suitable for their strategy, they can choose not to hire them.

Logic flaw, again, as some "dos santos" could look very Swiss, and could speak much better than native Swiss.

Again we are in the field of assumptions and appearances, the "way the name look on paper". Yet in shops, you hardly see the first name tags, when you find an employee- Which can perfectly be "Maria" for a Swiss, or whatever origin.

So no, I still don't see, in that example, a valid justification.
I know a few, like for legal reasons, or business travel, but they are specific.
Yet those examples are real, a small town shop prefers local blonds above Nigerianen employees since that's what local town people often prefer (mind you that last week a Turkish woman did not get her passport since she did not shop locally enough) Try to run a store in such community while your employers all are foreign and in the eyes of the Swiss locals don't take enough part in the local economy/social life, you'd better of closing your store immediately.

In Holland it's hard to get a job for example when being from Morocco since on average and despite al the good people there's just more problems with them.

And as for Serbs and Croatians it's not that long ago that they killed and expelled each other on very large scale, it takes generations to be able to get along on large scale again.

You can deny the truth, but that does not make the truth go away. And sure you now can call me a racist, but this is how the world works.
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  #27  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:08
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Nonsense. The OH works for a Swiss family run company (into the 3rd generation now) which has 58 different nationalities working for it, most of whom are not Swiss.
Swiss company here, 95 people in my department, I am the only Swiss. Granted, this is big corporate, but still.
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  #28  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:18
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Personally, I prefer people who are honest. If someone's lying on a CV and I find out about it (which is very likely, sooner or later), I will of course wonder what else they will lie about or have already lied about. I have no interest in working with dishonest opportunists and would simply never trust them with anything, which is not exactly the basis for a good working relationship.

Aside from that, that stupid nationality thing keeps coming up here, when in reality, there's very likely other reasons someone is not being considered, one of them being that, contrary to most countries, Switzerland has a HIGHLY competitive work environment with tons of very qualified, high-skilled people (not only from Switzerland). The other being bad at interviews or simply not fulfilling some criteria for the job.

If they want someone to speak a local language fluently, it is their damn right to ask for that - matter of fact, it's pretty common in every country to expect applicants to speak the language, if only to be able to converse with other team members. Who knows, it may not always be crucial to the job itself (though in most cases it still is), but if a team has 9 German-speakers, then why exactly would they go for someone who doesn't speak German at all, only for the other 9 to have to adapt absolutely everything including, for instance, the way they hold meetings? Which country or company would adapt to me, just because I can't be bothered to learn the local language? This type of thinking is simply pure arrogance.

I never ceases to amaze me that some people seem to think the world owes them or something.
I'm agree. Moreover, I dare to add, it will not be soon just sheer arrogance and something people now view as unreasonable - but an entitlement created by the mentality thriving on quotas and political correctness as opposed to merit. One will find himself (non German speaking or qualification wise not up the scratch) in a team of German speakers simply as a result of integration/diversity/gender promotion. Are we going to be as amazed as we are now?
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  #29  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:29
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Re: How to land a job in CH

Goodness,

As if things were not difficult enough trying to keep your job as a Swiss in Switzerland.

So, am really curious OP - what's your EU membership status.
And how does this make you eligible for employment in Switzerland?
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  #30  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:37
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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You can deny the truth, but that does not make the truth go away. And sure you now can call me a racist, but this is how the world works.
Nope, your logic is absolutely flawed, and based on assumptions and presumptions, which are absolute enemies of running a successful business, especially nowadays.

I definitely won't call you racist, why would I?
But if you defend your logic, you are just plainly wrong, feeding stereotypes and making misinformed decisions, to an extend of discrimination.

Now the example is simple. In most cases, you don't need to know the nationality because it's biased and not reflecting what the recruiter is looking for: Someone who can do the job, with specific skills (yes, I will including "physical presentation or look" in these skills).

Meeting the candidates showing right skills on CV, is the next step, the interview.

During that stage, you can see candidates and see if they fit the job based on your criteria*.

See? No need to ask for nationality before.

What you are describing is discrimination, period.


*And yes, discrimination can occur also at that stage, but you can reject someone "because the look is important and the candidate does not have it", as opposed to "he's Portuguese".
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  #31  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:46
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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One will find himself (non German speaking or qualification wise not up the scratch) in a team of German speakers simply as a result of integration/diversity/gender promotion. Are we going to be as amazed as we are now?
This is already a reality in at least the company I work with and no, we're not so amazed
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  #32  
Old 17.07.2017, 15:49
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Re: How to land a job in CH

We had a very recent case at a big CH bank. My bank. Oh - and yes, my job.
It wasn't much - enough to keep me putting my daughter through Uni. That was it.

This year we'd planned our first vacation together since 7 seven years (single Mom).
And now I've just been informed that the average of the 6 of people fulfilling my position in Pune will be taking over (cheap apparently).

Last edited by ZuriRollt; 17.07.2017 at 16:01.
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  #33  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:00
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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We had a very recent case at a big CH bank. My bank. Oh - and yes, my job.
Like I have been reminded recently, it's not your job or your role. You are merely an employee and have to accept decisions coming from your management. Your role is to fit in the existing organisation, no matter how imperfect it is, and play nice with everyone else. No matter how stupid they are or if having limited skills.

If you don't accept the above (personal input: or if the working environment is clearly and obviously toxic, flawed, using favoritism instead of merit...), then leave.

In that context, I don't see the problem of having someone non native speaker, especially in corporate environment when usually English is the main language, or if it's a mandatory requirement for most employees.
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  #34  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:02
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Oh man, that is a big no-no. If I had found out an applicant had lied about their nationality in their CV, I'm sorry to say, I would have showed them the door immediately. It's a very bad first impression, seriously...
Same with internet dating.

Tom
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  #35  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:06
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Same with internet dating.

Tom
Quite different in fact, one could still try to have a slice of that pie prior to discard it
I guess it depends on what one is looking for, and in my experience many are simply after a quick bite and not the long term commitment thing.

I guess it's like contract vs permanent role
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  #36  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:07
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Like I have been reminded recently, it's not your job or your role. You are merely an employee and have to accept decisions coming from your management. Your role is to fit in the existing organisation, no matter how imperfect it is, and play nice with everyone else. No matter how stupid they are or if having limited skills.

If you don't accept the above (personal input: or if the working environment is clearly and obviously toxic, flawed, using favoritism instead of merit...), then leave.

In that context, I don't see the problem of having someone non native speaker, especially in corporate environment when usually English is the main language, or if it's a mandatory requirement for most employees.
Absolutely.
I'm completely excited about any prospect of learning Indian English.
Doubt that it will be funded by UBS Asset Management though.
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  #37  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:17
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Absolutely.
I'm completely excited about any prospect of learning Indian English.
Doubt that it will be funded by UBS Asset Management though.
You don't have to be excited about it.
Unfortunately for us, IT professionals, it's a reality and we are too weak/dumb/stupid to have done something about it.
Now we are dependent on activities relocated and their consequences.

It's the new reality of the job, you don't like it, move on.
Sad but true.

And yes, I have worse issues, I agree if communication is difficult, it's pain in the bottom to deal with that. Yet it's a reality and it's required (by your management).

Now to conclude that your management should be replaced is a step which I would not officially comment on, especially as they have also have business requirements. But I would certainly reconsider helping the bastewards, as much as I did.

I mean it's clearly a difficult topic, mixing a lot of potential problems.
I think in your example the problem is not the nationality but the fact that some manager has recruited someone without the required language skills, which creates a problem.
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  #38  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:24
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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Nope, your logic is absolutely flawed, and based on assumptions and presumptions, which are absolute enemies of running a successful business, especially nowadays.

I definitely won't call you racist, why would I?
But if you defend your logic, you are just plainly wrong, feeding stereotypes and making misinformed decisions, to an extend of discrimination.

Now the example is simple. In most cases, you don't need to know the nationality because it's biased and not reflecting what the recruiter is looking for: Someone who can do the job, with specific skills (yes, I will including "physical presentation or look" in these skills).

Meeting the candidates showing right skills on CV, is the next step, the interview.

During that stage, you can see candidates and see if they fit the job based on your criteria*.

See? No need to ask for nationality before.

What you are describing is discrimination, period.


*And yes, discrimination can occur also at that stage, but you can reject someone "because the look is important and the candidate does not have it", as opposed to "he's Portuguese".
You fail to see the difference between how you want the market to work, and how the market actually works.
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Old 17.07.2017, 16:35
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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I don't see the problem of having someone non native speaker.
In 31 years here, I have never worked where I was a native speaker (English).

Hell, most of the time, I have spoken French at work, despite never having lived in the French-speaking bit!

The only people I regularly don't speak French with are foreigners (in which cases, I speak Italian or German)!

Tom
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Old 17.07.2017, 16:39
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Re: How to land a job in CH

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You fail to see the difference between how you want the market to work, and how the market actually works.
Maybe.
Maybe it also works as you say, yet that's discrimination.
And true, in this country, the system hardly protect against that. If it was the UK, many of these acts would be easily taken to justice and offenders easily punished.
Plus i'm not denying "how it works" in its entirety, I'm against easily accepting these behaviors as the norm, simply because "it works like that".

At the very least, I can remind how it's wrong and should not be tolerated.

Note how I did not defend the OP's story as I know close to nothing about it. Yet the assumptions based on nationality are flawed and only exist because some people want them to exist, and will refuse to see the fact that it's negative behavior.

Look at all these companies documents on respect, tolerance, diversity, equity... If these are not respected or applied it's not because these are utopic concepts, it's because some are letting hatress, ignorance and stupidity fool themselves.

Amen.
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