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Old 17.07.2017, 13:20
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IT jobs (Databases)

Hi everyone,

I'm french working in Paris (IT, Databases).

I speack english and learning german (still stuck in the basics)

I've been wanting to relocate to switzerland for a while, It has the reputation for better work culture, better wages, better carrier advance ....

I'm looking for your insights or feed backs, what do you think ?

Thanks !
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  #2  
Old 17.07.2017, 14:23
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

There are database jobs here, but "it depends"
There are jobs but very little entry level

- Which DB engine?
- DBA or code monkey?
- Banking experience?
- How much experience?
- Other experience (sysadmin? .net? php?)

I'm a database monkey myself
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Old 17.07.2017, 14:56
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

Think about living in France at Swiss border near Geneva, and commuting to job at one of private banks there. 30-40 min by tram, lots of French IT guys do that.
And no need to know German for that.
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Old 17.07.2017, 14:57
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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There are database jobs here, but "it depends"
There are jobs but very little entry level

- Which DB engine?
- DBA or code monkey?
- Banking experience?
- How much experience?
- Other experience (sysadmin? .net? php?)

I'm a database monkey myself
Thank you dear database monkey

I'm a dba, working wih oracle/mssql. 13 years of experience, last 8 years as a dba.

i've done other stuff before (.net, php .... some sysadmin, mysql & postresql)

no banking experience (i've managed some banks databases as a support dba though)
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Old 17.07.2017, 15:49
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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Think about living in France at Swiss border near Geneva, and commuting to job at one of private banks there. 30-40 min by tram, lots of French IT guys do that.
And no need to know German for that.
Looks like a very interesting idea !

Thanks
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  #6  
Old 17.07.2017, 16:29
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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It has the reputation for better work culture, better wages, better carrier advance ....
LOL.
1) better work culture: choose well then, it's the worse I ever experienced, by far, and based on numerous standards. I worked in like 10-15 countries.

2) better wages: don't get fooled by apparent numbers. Maybe a bit true, but at a cost of many other variables (like 42hours work /week is minimum).

3) better carrier advance : haha. Especially not for you, as a french. Even worse if you are becoming a... frontalier. It's like having the plague but without the falling skin bits. Frontalier are reputed good for being cheap worker, why would anyone help you with having a better carrier advance?
Also, expect a massive cultural shock, which most likely is going to wipe years of potential carrier advancement.
And finally, there's nothing guaranteed and you are most likely not going to grasp the importance of local, and will lack the relation to make it work quickly, meaning, again numerous years lost.

Oh and for a mere database side, nowadays it's mostly all about mongoDB, MariaDB, and the likes, which are quite different than oracle/oracle rac. Ok you can still find customer using Oracle, but that technology is becoming less demanded on the market.

4) As for reputation, that what is it... a reputation, not facts.
I still hear around myths or past stories about Switzwerland which might have been true decades ago, but no longers. Like my old colleagues used to have much higher "Swiss salary" (fact, verified), much lower rents (fact, verified), much more job security and safety (fact, verified). All which are nowadays a thing of the past.

Morality: stay where you are or look in another country.
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Old 18.07.2017, 13:20
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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LOL.
1) better work culture: choose well then, it's the worse I ever experienced, by far, and based on numerous standards. I worked in like 10-15 countries.

2) better wages: don't get fooled by apparent numbers. Maybe a bit true, but at a cost of many other variables (like 42hours work /week is minimum).

3) better carrier advance : haha. Especially not for you, as a french. Even worse if you are becoming a... frontalier. It's like having the plague but without the falling skin bits. Frontalier are reputed good for being cheap worker, why would anyone help you with having a better carrier advance?
Also, expect a massive cultural shock, which most likely is going to wipe years of potential carrier advancement.
And finally, there's nothing guaranteed and you are most likely not going to grasp the importance of local, and will lack the relation to make it work quickly, meaning, again numerous years lost.

Oh and for a mere database side, nowadays it's mostly all about mongoDB, MariaDB, and the likes, which are quite different than oracle/oracle rac. Ok you can still find customer using Oracle, but that technology is becoming less demanded on the market.

4) As for reputation, that what is it... a reputation, not facts.
I still hear around myths or past stories about Switzwerland which might have been true decades ago, but no longers. Like my old colleagues used to have much higher "Swiss salary" (fact, verified), much lower rents (fact, verified), much more job security and safety (fact, verified). All which are nowadays a thing of the past.

Morality: stay where you are or look in another country.

Thank you for this insight !

Had you worked in french or german speaking cantons ?
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Old 18.07.2017, 13:38
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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Thank you for this insight !

Had you worked in french or german speaking cantons ?
French, but I have numerous experiences and have a knowledge of several cantons and know many people with other experiences. I also lived and work abroad in numerous countries (technically, I am still abroad as I have frog nationality, I'm not Swiss).

You are basing your wishes on a very utopia-like and outdated vision of Switzerland.

The best advice is lower your expectations, and probably, look elsewhere if you are into the "going abroad" thing.

I used to have a team in Paris also, they absolutely hated dealing with Swiss-French, and it was the same love relationship on the other side. Yet, all grown up people, perfectly able to be ok "if they wanted to". And that's only 1 example among many.

set linesize 200;
show parameters switzerlanddream;
switzerlanddream: over.
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Old 19.07.2017, 16:45
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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French, but I have numerous experiences and have a knowledge of several cantons and know many people with other experiences. I also lived and work abroad in numerous countries (technically, I am still abroad as I have frog nationality, I'm not Swiss).

You are basing your wishes on a very utopia-like and outdated vision of Switzerland.

The best advice is lower your expectations, and probably, look elsewhere if you are into the "going abroad" thing.

I used to have a team in Paris also, they absolutely hated dealing with Swiss-French, and it was the same love relationship on the other side. Yet, all grown up people, perfectly able to be ok "if they wanted to". And that's only 1 example among many.

set linesize 200;
show parameters switzerlanddream;
switzerlanddream: over.
hahaha, thank you

OK seems like Switzerland is (no longer) what I hoped for ...

I still want some international experience, what would you advise me ? As you had worked in many places ... I'm also kind of attrackted by the usa, altough it would be a pretty wild change
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Old 20.07.2017, 09:45
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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hahaha, thank you

OK seems like Switzerland is (no longer) what I hoped for ...

I still want some international experience, what would you advise me ? As you had worked in many places ... I'm also kind of attrackted by the usa, altough it would be a pretty wild change
Well, I'd hesitate to make a judgement based on the opinion of one of our most negative forum posters. There are good and bad things about the country, but many of us enjoy it. Explore your options and see what happens.
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Old 20.07.2017, 10:16
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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Well, I'd hesitate to make a judgement based on the opinion of one of our most negative forum posters. There are good and bad things about the country, but many of us enjoy it. Explore your options and see what happens.
You are correct, regarding basing on 1 opinion, it's certainly not enough to make an educated choice. Nevertheless, I would like to remind you the information provided was "It has the reputation for better work culture, better wages, better carrier advance".
As a matter of fact, I have an extensive experience of that, and I have many similarities with the OP.

While, as you said and as I tried to demonstrate, "there are good and bad", bottom line, Switzerland is very different.
Also, i'm pretty familiar with the stereotypes of Switzerland widely spread in France.

Now, one can like the differences, and everyone can adapt in a new environment.

I just wanted to ensure that the idealistic and over positive dream vision of Switzerland are lowered to a more realistic level. In other word, managing the OP's expectations.

As for the mixing your comment and the OP's comment ("pretty wild change") there is a very high possibility of a massive cultural shock going from France to Swiss Romande, despite the apparent similarities (which came down to language mostly).

So my conclusion, which should be of course moderate by your own research, there are plenty of other options. In my opinion, based on the little you posted, you'd do much better elsewhere. Of course, it's down to you and you only, and you can "make it happen". I just think it would be much easier elsewhere for you, and again, with the little amount you posted.


PS: Corbet, i'm not the MOST negative? and me who though I was a champion
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Old 20.07.2017, 12:03
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

Exploring my options is indeed what I'm trying to do. Switzerland ranks high in the hsbc expat annual survey : https://www.expatexplorer.hsbc.com/survey/

So I guess I should start applying to job offers, see how it goes, and what kind of opportunities I get.

Thank you
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Old 25.07.2017, 18:35
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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Exploring my options is indeed what I'm trying to do. Switzerland ranks high in the hsbc expat annual survey : https://www.expatexplorer.hsbc.com/survey/

So I guess I should start applying to job offers, see how it goes, and what kind of opportunities I get.

Thank you
These surveys are far from being accurate... I can understand the need to evaluate a country "first" without moving into it, but in the end, that's how one is going to handle it which will matter.

For exemple, I knew some people absolutely happy in Dominican Republic, a country which does not offer as much safety than Switzerland, yet they were borderline miserable here.


Now, remember one thing: you don't know who, when, these survey where taken. As much as you should consider careful the likes of me, negative people, you should even more be careful of permanent cheerful optimistic persons who find everything amaaaazing "aka Americans abroad, lol". True story, I even heard and observed some American in Tel Aviv market who was exulting at the sight of any fruit and vegetables, very loudly. Amazing.

So who answered these survey?

Additionally there is at least 2 possibilities:
1) It could be from people who are here for decades. A very important detail since they could benefit from "old salaries" (higher) and "old rents" (significantly lower, approx 60% in average, check Comparis.ch). Which then makes the experience much more enjoying, and the feedback possibly way more positive.
Careful, I am not saying money bring happiness, but certainly it would moderate any experiences when you got problems about 1% of your salary vs 10%...



2) It could be from people in very "protected" expat bubble environment, with high American Salaries and numerous contacts and a decent expat support.
As an exemple, there is no way in a million year I would be able to afford some "international schools" for the children, costing average 20K+ chf/year. Some easily do that here.



Now looking further into your survey results, look at:
-Experience with property (44th rank)
-Integration (42nd rank, which is by extension very important for your future career prospects)
-Making friends (42nd rank), again very very important for your career promotion(s)
-Familly social life (44th rank), goodbye, social life, unless you have decent wallet to support coffees, restaurants, etc...

-Tolerance (35th rank). Not sure what it's about but I know one thing: dont make any mistakes here, tolerance zero.


So it seems your survey is ranking Switzerland high due to economy mostly.
Again, there use to be a lot of money here, it's certainly changed in past few years, and anyway you are unlikely to be part of the big pie eater, at least in the first few years until you make decent professional network, etc...
That is, if you manage to handle the cultural shock well, and will manage to fit and please local values.



Well, for me these surveys are absolutely dumb and very limited use.

Switzerland is very very special, I would expend my options if I were you.

Good luck anyway.
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Old 26.07.2017, 00:13
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

If you are French and would find a job in the French speaking side I can imagine that it would be much less a cultural shock. Mind you however that for Swiss the language thingy is stronger than the religion. Could you imagine anywhere else a town like Fribourg which throughout so many years is divided in half by French and German speaking population?

For the economic part, it's not a paradise. You can perhaps get more than in France if you are young, healthy, single... once anything changes France may be more attractive. The salaries here just follow the expenses.

For career opportunities, I would advise you to search more for fresh information on that subject. In my professional life only the american corporations came with a career program in place.
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Old 26.07.2017, 13:06
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If you are French and would find a job in the French speaking side I can imagine that it would be much less a cultural shock.
I am French and lived in Swiss Romande for many years.
I also lived "abroad" (which technically I am still doing).

I never ever had such a big cultural shock as here.

Even UK was more smooth, even Poland, or/and numerous other countries.

The only thing in common in fact is the language (well, beside a few funny words and the vigesimal thing).

In fact, it's for me to an extend where I wish I would not understand what is said locally, I would probably feel much better and more integrated.

Maybe for the OP it will be different, but clearly let's not assume it's same language, therefore no cultural shock. It's entirely different culture.

And going into details, I think it's in fact a breeding ground for potential issues between someone French vs someone Swiss. And as I said, I have plenty of other experiences, from my numerous observations, and we used to have offices in Paris too.

Different is good, is the OP abilities to adjust quickly, avoid traps which will cost YEARS in terms of professional career development. That requires really strong skills, and it is a path full of traps.
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Old 28.07.2017, 00:30
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

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I am French and lived in Swiss Romande for many years.
...
In fact, it's for me to an extend where I wish I would not understand what is said locally, I would probably feel much better and more integrated.
...
Thanks, I feel happier now about not knowing French
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Old 01.08.2017, 14:47
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Re: IT jobs (Databases)

Thank you very much !

I have a much clearer idea about the country and it's specifics now.

I had indeed heart that american corporations are probably best at presenting carrer plans to motivated folks.

I would probably first try such a corporation in Paris
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