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Old 20.07.2017, 13:21
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Permanent to Contracting

Hi,
I would like to know anyone's experiences of moving from a permanent role to a contract role. as you know permanent roles often come with atleast 2 month notice (raising to 3 months if you work for 9 years) and this is a big hurdle to moving into contract roles. the initial discussion about the contract roles starts with what is the current notice period and if it is negotiable.


I dont know what to say to this question because no employer would be ready to let you go soon before serving the official notice period as clearly there is no benefit for them. so i am hesitant to ask this question to my current employer. other impact is that if you ask to go sooner and the employer does not agree, you may not take the contract role and stay in the current job but the current employer already knows your intentions and could create a hostile environment at the work place.


I know sensible managers will generally try to fix the problem and convince the employee to stay and if the employee is not convinced they let them go.But i am talking about the majority of insane managers who try to harass the employee knowing that he/she will leave the company soon and scrutinize every time off , doubting that the employee is attending an interview. when it is clear that the boss needs the employee, he will make every effort to prevent the employee to attend any interviews (but not actually trying the fix the problem).
so, how did you manage these kind of situations? most of the times, the contract roles need you to join within a short period of time and the chances of negotiation there are remote, i guess. because i believe if you are not available at a short notice, they will go with someone else who is available. so in the end you end up in an ugly situation that you dont get the contract role but also at the same time that your boss knows your intentions of leaving now and will try to block you for any future interviews.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 20.07.2017, 14:50
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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(...) as clearly there is no benefit for them.
Sure there are. In plenty of jobs it's better to agree on a garden leave or mutual termination (meaning actually mutual) than to stick to the notice period.

So essentially, you want to get out of your notice period and leave sooner for some other job, is that right? Three options:
a) employer says it's fine, you agree on garden leave, meaning you stop working, but will be paid and have to wait with your new job until the notice period is through
b) employer says it's fine and you mutually agree (in writing) to waiver the notice period, meaning you can leave immediately or at some agreed-upon date, he stops paying you, you're free to do whatever you want
c) employer says no, you have to work for the whole notice period and then that's just what it is. You can't have it all, you wish to change your employment situation, but that doesn't mean the current employer has to go along with it.

You'll only find out if you ask, as does everyone else. The experience of someone else doesn't help you because your own boss may still go an entirely different route. In general, honesty works best, explain the situation and see what happens. Or you quit anyway and figure it out during/after the notice period. There's simply always a risk, even more so if you plan on going from a semi-secure situation to a, in my view, less secure situation.
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Old 20.07.2017, 14:52
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

Quit. During the notice period, develop a bit of backbone if you have an insane manager. After notice period apply for contracts.

Quite simple really.
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Old 20.07.2017, 16:07
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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Quit. During the notice period, develop a bit of backbone if you have an insane manager. After notice period apply for contracts.

Quite simple really.
what? are you saying to quit the current job without a job lined up? that would be foolish in my view and like shooting your own foot.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 20.07.2017, 16:12
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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Sure there are. In plenty of jobs it's better to agree on a garden leave or mutual termination (meaning actually mutual) than to stick to the notice period.

So essentially, you want to get out of your notice period and leave sooner for some other job, is that right? Three options:
a) employer says it's fine, you agree on garden leave, meaning you stop working, but will be paid and have to wait with your new job until the notice period is through
b) employer says it's fine and you mutually agree (in writing) to waiver the notice period, meaning you can leave immediately or at some agreed-upon date, he stops paying you, you're free to do whatever you want
c) employer says no, you have to work for the whole notice period and then that's just what it is. You can't have it all, you wish to change your employment situation, but that doesn't mean the current employer has to go along with it.

You'll only find out if you ask, as does everyone else. The experience of someone else doesn't help you because your own boss may still go an entirely different route. In general, honesty works best, explain the situation and see what happens. Or you quit anyway and figure it out during/after the notice period. There's simply always a risk, even more so if you plan on going from a semi-secure situation to a, in my view, less secure situation.
Thanks for your detailed explanation.
options a and b are not valid in my situation since i have more work to do than i can do, so it is always beneficial to the employer that i work till the last minute of my notice period.
in option c, where you have to serve the entire notice period, this means the lined job is gone as they cannot wait that long. in this situations, i have to stay back in the current job and this is where i want to avoid ugly situations with the boss since he clearly knows that i am no longer interested to work here.


but i get the message. There is always the rist that it might turn into option c and we should be ready to face such ugly situations.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 20.07.2017, 17:11
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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what? are you saying to quit the current job without a job lined up?
Yes, exactly that.

It's the nature of contracting. When in contract you won't usually have time to go for interviews, only when out of contract. Obviously it's better if you can get lined up before contract end, but it's simply not always possible. If you can't handle this from the off, then don't bother.

I've been contracting since 2005 + a stint 1997-2000.
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Old 20.07.2017, 17:43
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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Hi,
I would like to know anyone's experiences of moving from a permanent role to a contract role. ...
Don't get fooled by the numbers. If for example you earn 125K gross in your permanent position you should get at least 90 /hour or 760 / day with contracting (all in) otherwise it does not pay off medium-term.
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Old 20.07.2017, 18:23
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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Don't get fooled by the numbers. If for example you earn 125K gross in your permanent position you should get at least 90 /hour or 760 / day with contracting (all in) otherwise it does not pay off medium-term.
Yes, i know that equation and only choosing contracts that pay higher.


Thanks.


cheers
happycreature
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Old 20.07.2017, 18:40
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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what? are you saying to quit the current job without a job lined up? that would be foolish in my view and like shooting your own foot.


cheers
happycreature
contracting isn't for you
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Old 20.07.2017, 22:47
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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what? are you saying to quit the current job without a job lined up? that would be foolish in my view and like shooting your own foot.


cheers
happycreature
Just by looking at this I don't think you'll be okay being a contractor.
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Old 20.07.2017, 23:27
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

Ok, i get the point looking at everyones replies here. Even if i am ready to quit the current job without a job lined up, what about RAV? I heard that there will be a penalty (3 months or so). Does anyone know from real experience what will be the penalty for such cases.
There are surely problems at the work place but i have no documentary evidence to prove that to rav, so in the end it may look like i quit the job for no real reason. I tried several times to collect evidence of harassement at work but my boss is very intelligent and he never agrees or denies anything in emails.

Cherrs
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Old 20.07.2017, 23:34
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

Use your current job to build up a nice amount of money which allows you to quit the job and start looking for contracting jobs while keeping the fridge stuffed in the meanwhile.

Having a perfect overlap from a normal job to contracting is only for a lucky few.
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Old 21.07.2017, 00:13
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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Ok, i get the point looking at everyones replies here. Even if i am ready to quit the current job without a job lined up, what about RAV? I heard that there will be a penalty (3 months or so). Does anyone know from real experience what will be the penalty for such cases.
There are surely problems at the work place but i have no documentary evidence to prove that to rav, so in the end it may look like i quit the job for no real reason. I tried several times to collect evidence of harassement at work but my boss is very intelligent and he never agrees or denies anything in emails.

Cherrs
Happycreature
Why do you want to be a contractor when you're so clearly uncomfortable with job insecurity?

RAV won't care about "problems at work" unless they are very signifiant. Also not sure what "harassment" is referring to. If you quit, you will be penalised, for how long depends on each case and is always different, can be weeks, can be months.
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Old 03.08.2017, 23:42
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

I got another question for a perm to contract switch.

I understand the contractor pays only minimum pensions (10%), no paid leave (10%), no sick leave, no 13th month (8%), no bonus (5-10%), no lunch checks, company mobile, etc...

Given all that, plus the little more job insecurity, what's the premium from a perm role in net salary alone where you would be comfortable going with a contract job? 30%? 50%? 66%?

I've been offered some contracts lately that had a close to 50% improvement compared with my current net salary alone, but I'm still hesitant to make the step. I personally don't think that it's worth it financially under 50%.
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Old 04.08.2017, 08:12
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

You have factor in the relative periods you will be in / out of contract. A contract rate that is 1.5x your current salary starts to look less attractive if you are 6 months out of contract.
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Old 04.08.2017, 10:16
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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You have factor in the relative periods you will be in / out of contract. A contract rate that is 1.5x your current salary starts to look less attractive if you are 6 months out of contract.
think you misunderstood me. a contract rate of 1.5x of my current salary already looks unattractive, because:
- you are not paid for your holidays (10% reduction)
- you are paying minimum pension plans (10% less)
- you are losing your bonus and 13th month salary (5-15%)

So the regular IT guy needs about 35% more from the start to be at the same level as with a perm job.

That's why I said a +50% does not seem to be worth it, unless one's forced to accept such a contract by the market.

Last edited by user137; 04.08.2017 at 10:26.
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Old 04.08.2017, 11:19
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

You got some good advice here but a few Points to consider - i have been in a contract role before - have moved from permanant to contract and back again in CH two times.


Couple Points - once you're in a contract Position, in General it is hard to get back to a Permanant Position. Unfortunately, here in CH, you carry a stima of being well lower or scum once you're in a contract role - it works against you when looking to become permanant.


Unless you're able to comparmentalize - and provided you've negotiated well you contracted rate where you are happy with that earning - you will have issues Managing the fact that you will be viewed as a second class citizen in the Company you're working for.


Of course pyschology wise you can manage it and act like you're an Consultant providing a Service that would be my best recommendation.


But it will be easy to fall in the trap of wanting to move to permanant Position when possibly that is not a Option from the Company perspective -see my Point on being viewed as scum.


This is CH - I think the UK could be different from what I here where contractors are called "Consultants" at least in my industry and ist normal to do that here at a tax Advantage, here in CH, unless you can negotiate well your salary - i don't see many other Advantages other than flexiblity to take of time between contracts - then in that case, i recommned you start your own Business and contract for yourself once you establish yourself and have a referenable performace record as a contractor.


So do consider that, CH sucks from that perpective, take a contract role only if you're desperate. Some companies will adverstise contractor to permanant roles, but take that with a massive grain of salt, ist never a promise, never writing in the contract, and can Change quickly such that what you think will be permanant will become a renewal of contract term after term where that may become the "new" permanant.


Cheers -
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Old 04.08.2017, 12:18
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

thanks for the excellent pieces of advice parkadam.

what kind of puzzles me, my last offer was a 1.5 yrs old contract "that will eventually run 2-3 yrs".

As per my understanding:
- the contracting person would get somewhere between 700-1200 francs a day
- the umbrella company would charge about 1600-2000 francs for their end customer

So about 20k CHF is wasted monthly on the overhead of the umbrella company from an end customer perspective. Why would the companies want a contractor for 3 years, knowing that it's a lose-lose scenario and only the contracting umbrella company wins on suppyling someone from the bodyshop?

Unless you do it with your own company of course. But then it's very hard to get close to the big accounts...
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Old 04.08.2017, 12:39
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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So do consider that, CH sucks from that perpective, take a contract role only if you're desperate.
I have a buddy who has been a mainframe contractor for more than 30 years. I know others who took short term contracts who have been in their positions for years, including one head of IT for a global company with a presence in more than 90 countries. There are always exceptions.
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Old 04.08.2017, 12:40
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Re: Permanent to Contracting

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thanks for the excellent pieces of advice parkadam.

what kind of puzzles me, my last offer was a 1.5 yrs old contract "that will eventually run 2-3 yrs".

As per my understanding:
- the contracting person would get somewhere between 700-1200 francs a day
- the umbrella company would charge about 1600-2000 francs for their end customer

So about 20k CHF is wasted monthly on the overhead of the umbrella company from an end customer perspective. Why would the companies want a contractor for 3 years, knowing that it's a lose-lose scenario and only the contracting umbrella company wins on suppyling someone from the bodyshop?

Unless you do it with your own company of course. But then it's very hard to get close to the big accounts...

Well in my industry its weird to see a contract for 3 years - that is Long. usually its 6 months to a year and if it is say longer, then it is renewed every year. So if the Company is even able to forecast they would have a 3 year Need, the contract is renewed every year. But I don't know about other sectors.


As far as you lose-lose, not really, the reality is that the Company does not want to have you a or the contracted role as a Fixed-Line Item in a their Full time-eqiv (FTE) Budget allocation as a permanant. So called, Permanant FTE. Which is never really permanant today right but that's another Topic.


So genearlly the Budget for the contract role will not sit in that Budget but would sit in someones or some department's Operational Budget and well annually once Budget is allocated to that department then well that's already accounted for finanaial as part of OPEX. end of Story. And if not of the departments Budget, the contract role to include the socalled Overhead is already budgeted for.


Also remember that even if you ARE a permanant FTE, your compensation in Terms of Salary and Bonus, only a part of your total cost to the Company, not reflected there are other Overhead costs such as insurances, Pension allocation, Training and development, adminstrative Management, etc. etc. etc. So that 20 K as you Claim is not really wasted, it does to the Service Provider for their managment of your FTE (where your FTE sits and of course their Service fee for thier Revenue).



Provision of contractor Services can be a lucrative Business if you're well established and connected in CH, so you get alot of Players here beyond the big ones that do niche themselves in specialty Services. Some of These small Folks start off as recruiters then as part of growth strategy offer constracting Services - some are good some are nipple heads - but you learn the nipple heads along the way and avoided them even as recruiters.


cheerio
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