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  #21  
Old 18.09.2017, 12:19
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

I don't think there is a single cause, all mentioned things add up. There is at least one more topic I ddin't see mentioned - all this is very dependent on type of work and employer.

Hiring to youngish 'agile' team (oh how I hate that word) somebody 20 years older might might not be the best idea. Younger are more willing to work overtime, might not get into 10-minute speeches how things were better back then, might not be so grumpy about some shortcuts done etc.

I don't think that increased social contributions do much difference, isn't it just few extra % which is anyway split between employer and employee?

Another thing might be potential longer absences due to worse health (which might be exact opposite if you hire 50-old marathon runner and compare him to some young couch potato).

But these are perceptions, not cold hard facts. Last time I checked our civilization generally doesn't give a damn about facts.
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Old 18.09.2017, 12:31
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I don't think there is a single cause, all mentioned things add up. There is at least one more topic I ddin't see mentioned - all this is very dependent on type of work and employer.

Hiring to youngish 'agile' team (oh how I hate that word) somebody 20 years older might might not be the best idea. Younger are more willing to work overtime, might not get into 10-minute speeches how things were better back then, might not be so grumpy about some shortcuts done etc.

Another thing might be potential longer absences due to worse health (which might be exact opposite if you hire 50-old marathon runner and compare him to some young couch potato).

But these are perceptions, not cold hard facts. Last time I checked our civilization generally doesn't give a damn about facts.
As you said: perceptions. Mine are different.

Do you really believe that 50 year olds are less healthy than younger people?
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  #23  
Old 18.09.2017, 13:02
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Hiring to youngish 'agile' team (oh how I hate that word) somebody 20 years older might might not be the best idea. Younger are more willing to work overtime, might not get into 10-minute speeches how things were better back then, might not be so grumpy about some shortcuts done etc.

Another thing might be potential longer absences due to worse health (which might be exact opposite if you hire 50-old marathon runner and compare him to some young couch potato).

But these are perceptions, not cold hard facts. Last time I checked our civilization generally doesn't give a damn about facts.
Bull. You are right with one thing: it's perception. Or rather: prejudice. And it's exactly ridiculous prejudice like above that leads to some employers thinking they can't hire "older" employees.

Have you met any 50-year olds? If not you really should. Every 50-year old I know can easily keep up with anyone younger, mentally and otherwise, and they are also just as willing to work long hours as anyone (especially in comparison to this current - and my own - materially entitled generation btw which often - though not always of course - seems to think a 40-hour-work week is already too much to ask).

And longer absences due to declining health? What do you think, they essentially have one foot in the grave? Just to be clear, it is often the 20-35 year olds that are absent from work for a not-insignificant time - military, pregnancy, maternity, paternity, later childcare - you name it.


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As for the pension system - it did make sense back when life expectancy post-retirement was 5 or so years. It does not make sense anymore now that it is closer to 20 years
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  #24  
Old 18.09.2017, 13:39
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I think the whole pension thing is set up pretty stupidly. Why weight more in later life when it has less time to compound? Just have a flat contribution rate across all ages.
Because you were expected to reproduce and therefore have some more expenses during your 30s... It was simply designed in the 50s and does not apply to the reality of many today.
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Old 18.09.2017, 13:46
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Younger are more willing to work overtime, might not get into 10-minute speeches how things were better back then, might not be so grumpy about some shortcuts done etc.
Not much of a chip on your shoulder
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Old 18.09.2017, 14:32
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

The free market.

There is a glut of old, experienced people. When supply goes up, demand goes down.

The skills you bring are slowly being replaced by automation and computation. When there are logarithms and AI designed to help you guide your company's investments, you dont need an old hand that comes with the salary expectations of old hands.

You're paid less because, quite simply, you're worth less. That is, worth less than someone with your experience used to be.

In the same way that houses are worth a lot more then they used to be, experience is worth a lot less. The houses themselves are no different, but the market around them has changed. The experience you have is just as valuable as ever; the problem is that the world around you has made it more irrelevant then ever.

Its not that a new employer is paying you less then they should; its that your old employer was paying you more than they should have.

Welcome to the real world, my friend.
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  #27  
Old 18.09.2017, 15:00
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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The free market.

There is a glut of old, experienced people. When supply goes up, demand goes down.

The skills you bring are slowly being replaced by automation and computation. When there are logarithms and AI designed to help you guide your company's investments, you dont need an old hand that comes with the salary expectations of old hands.

You're paid less because, quite simply, you're worth less. That is, worth less than someone with your experience used to be.

In the same way that houses are worth a lot more then they used to be, experience is worth a lot less. The houses themselves are no different, but the market around them has changed. The experience you have is just as valuable as ever; the problem is that the world around you has made it more irrelevant then ever.

Its not that a new employer is paying you less then they should; its that your old employer was paying you more than they should have.

Welcome to the real world, my friend.
I disagree. Especially in certain positions, I'd take an experienced 55-year old over a 25-year old green wannabe who cannot possibly have a clue any day. Yes the 55-year old may not use Snapchat - so what. It's hardly relevant for 99% of all jobs out there.

Also, some professions disappear, others come up, this is nothing new. The change and progress (if you want to call it that) in technology affects EVERYONE, not just the "old ones". Or do you really think that anyone can realistically keep up with that and constantly change course?

Age has nothing to do with one's ability to change or adapt. Some people are sharp, agile and easily learn new things, at any age. Others are and do not, whether they're 15, 45 or 85. To generalize is ridiculous and wrong. It's merely the PRESUMPTION that people can't do certain things as of a certain age that messes it all up.
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Old 18.09.2017, 15:06
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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The free market.

There is a glut of old, experienced people. When supply goes up, demand goes down.

The skills you bring are slowly being replaced by automation and computation. When there are logarithms and AI designed to help you guide your company's investments, you dont need an old hand that comes with the salary expectations of old hands.

You're paid less because, quite simply, you're worth less. That is, worth less than someone with your experience used to be.

In the same way that houses are worth a lot more then they used to be, experience is worth a lot less. The houses themselves are no different, but the market around them has changed. The experience you have is just as valuable as ever; the problem is that the world around you has made it more irrelevant then ever.

Its not that a new employer is paying you less then they should; its that your old employer was paying you more than they should have.

Welcome to the real world, my friend.
I think this is completely the wrong way around - most of the skills being replaced by automation are NOT those related to being older and more experienced; it has more of an impact on low skilled workers.

It does have an impact on the workforce as a whole, potentially lowering salaries generally but also pushing more people into higher skilled jobs where they are able.

But in this case I think salaries are generally going down due to the CHF rate - I think if people compared the EUR equivalent salary when they got their job and the EUR equivalent now, it's probably increased by inflation as you'd expect.

Older people notice this more because they've been in a job for longer, their career isn't increasing their salary, and they're more likely to move for a job at the same level.
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Old 18.09.2017, 15:11
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

young people are cheaper. that's basically all you need to know.

if cheaper people (or robots) can't do your job, and your job is essential, or so critical that people can't take the risk, then you're fine.

otherwise, your job is going to be offshored, automated, or done ineptly by someone fresh out of university who'll work twice the hours for peanuts.
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  #30  
Old 18.09.2017, 15:18
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Age has nothing to do with one's ability to change or adapt. Some people are sharp, agile and easily learn new things, at any age. Others are and do not, whether they're 15, 45 or 85. To generalize is ridiculous and wrong. It's merely the PRESUMPTION that people can't do certain things as of a certain age that messes it all up.
Um, no? It's a theory that you can test with scientific means... and I think it's probably true that the average 25yr old is more open to new ideas than the average 55 year old. And very honestly is it also simply a biological fact that we have a peak time in life both when it comes to physical as well as intellectual capabilities. There is a reason why commercial pilots retire pretty early.

Some people can cover these effects easily by making enough experience to work smarter than the younger colleagues. Some don't. In my personal life does it seem that there is also a ceiling to experience - a 35 yr old will be better at his job than a fresh college graduate. But if a person did not learn how to behave professionally at the age of 40 do I not think they'll magically transform once they hit 55...
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  #31  
Old 18.09.2017, 15:19
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

This is why I believe in saving up and retiring as early as possible to some semi-low cost country where they still have a decent liefstyle and healthcare.
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  #32  
Old 18.09.2017, 15:50
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Being able to work above 50 is a luxury today.

Private companies exist to make profit.Therefore, they will make decisions based on how much net profit is one bringing to the company.

There are two scenarios:

1. For the same income (or value in the form of turnover,saving,etc.) a cheaper employee will be selected. Loyalty,experience,etc means nothing in this case.

2. If one costs more, the has to bring more income(same as above)

Considering today's flat organizations where no single person is responsible of the whole process anymore(individual contributions are limited), the first scenario prevails the second one in frequency.
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  #33  
Old 18.09.2017, 16:00
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Being able to work above 50 is a luxury today.

Private companies exist to make profit.Therefore, they will make decisions based on how much net profit is one bringing to the company.

There are two scenarios:

1. For the same income (or value in the form of turnover,saving,etc.) a cheaper employee will be selected. Loyalty,experience,etc means nothing in this case.

2. If one costs more, the has to bring more income(same as above)

Considering today's flat organizations where no single person is responsible of the whole process anymore(individual contributions are limited), the first scenario prevails the second one in frequency.
Companies and hiring staff like to look cost savvy, but in all my career I have yet to see somebody not hired because they were too expensive.

If companies negotiate down your salary it's to show they can, not because it really matters.
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  #34  
Old 18.09.2017, 16:08
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Companies and hiring staff like to look cost savvy, but in all my career I have yet to see somebody not hired because they were too expensive.

If companies negotiate down your salary it's to show they can, not because it really matters.
Let me clarify, I see "being expensive" as a matter of the relative expected contribution.
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Old 18.09.2017, 16:57
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Companies and hiring staff like to look cost savvy, but in all my career I have yet to see somebody not hired because they were too expensive.

If companies negotiate down your salary it's to show they can, not because it really matters.
I can only assume that you work in some corporate function where profitability is hard to calculate and measure. I can see in my daily life very frequently cases where people don't get hired cause they are too expensive.

In my industry do certain IT contractors not get a job because they think they are worth x CHF an hour based on the experience that this was what they were paid in the past... and dare I say that it's typically the exact same group who complain that they just don't get hired based of their age. The fact is often that the others are not some young guns who don't understand their worth, but have a realistic view of the market as it is today. I don't like it either and would prefer the day rates back we got ten years ago... but the time for a lot of those cushy contracts is simply over.
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  #36  
Old 18.09.2017, 17:17
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I can only assume that you work in some corporate function where profitability is hard to calculate and measure. I can see in my daily life very frequently cases where people don't get hired cause they are too expensive.

In my industry do certain IT contractors not get a job because they think they are worth x CHF an hour based on the experience that this was what they were paid in the past... and dare I say that it's typically the exact same group who complain that they just don't get hired based of their age. The fact is often that the others are not some young guns who don't understand their worth, but have a realistic view of the market as it is today. I don't like it either and would prefer the day rates back we got ten years ago... but the time for a lot of those cushy contracts is simply over.
I wasn't talking about contractors, consultants and temporary hires.

For them it is indeed quite often the law of the jungle.

But when it comes to permanent hires, I've many times been in a position were we were down to a short list of two or three people who we liked and who were about equal in terms of what we thought they could do. Usually at that point it is just some gut feeling that tips the balance, such as I think I can get on better with this person. Even if it turned out his or her salary demand was about 30% higher than the other guy, I don't ever recall anybody saiyng, look this person is maybe 1% less perfect but 30% cheaper. That just doesn't happen.
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Old 18.09.2017, 17:21
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I wasn't talking about contractors, consultants and temporary hires.

For them it is indeed quite often the law of the jungle.

But when it comes to permanent hires, I've many times been in a position were we were down to a short list of two or three people who we liked and who were about equal in terms of what we thought they could do. Usually at that point it is just some gut feeling that tips the balance, such as I think I can get on better with this person. Even if it turned out his or her salary demand was about 30% higher than the other guy, I don't ever recall anybody saiyng, look this person is maybe 1% less perfect but 30% cheaper. That just doesn't happen.
Is this also valid for non managers or mid-level managers as well?
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Old 18.09.2017, 17:30
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I wasn't talking about contractors, consultants and temporary hires.

For them it is indeed quite often the law of the jungle.

But when it comes to permanent hires, I've many times been in a position were we were down to a short list of two or three people who we liked and who were about equal in terms of what we thought they could do. Usually at that point it is just some gut feeling that tips the balance, such as I think I can get on better with this person. Even if it turned out his or her salary demand was about 30% higher than the other guy, I don't ever recall anybody saiyng, look this person is maybe 1% less perfect but 30% cheaper. That just doesn't happen.
But by the time you are at this point the salary has already been validated to be within the available funding.

If someone was too expensive, they wouldn't get that far anyway.
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Old 18.09.2017, 17:33
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Is this also valid for non managers or mid-level managers as well?
I'm not that high up. I never hired managers.
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Old 18.09.2017, 17:56
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Is this also valid for non managers or mid-level managers as well?
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I'm not that high up. I never hired managers.
The level wouldn't be relevant to this. Speaking from experience, what matters is whether the hiring manager is responsible for real costs of an employee or theoretical averaged costs.

In a big company the hiring manager tends to have a notional cost for an employee based on their grade. If they hire someone at the top of the band or the bottom of the band it makes no difference to the cost, so isn't considered (or is even considered the other way round, if having someone expensive working for you gives your profile a boost).

In a small company the hiring manager may understand the real cost, and may have an interest in saving 30% vs a 1% loss of experience. That could make a significant positive difference to company cashflow with little loss in productivity.
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