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Old 19.09.2017, 16:06
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

I am firmly in the start / middle of many aspects of this general situation recently, and so will not comment just yet.

But one thing I would like to say: it is a horrible situation to be in if you've completely and unexpectedly lost your position at the age of 54 due to cost-cutting; out-sourcing to India etc. etc. etc.

It impacts your self-esteem, destroys much of that which you've worked extremely hard for and built over the decades, your values, and in many cases leaves an open question as to your financial future. This in-turn may affect the most healthy of us.
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:15
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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....It impacts your self-esteem, destroys much of that which you've worked extremely hard for and built over the decades, your values, and in many cases leaves an open question as to your financial future. This in-turn may affect the most healthy of us.
Yes, it takes a very strong person to say "it was only my job, it was not me". Most of us associate ourselves, sense of worth etc to having a job, but it is not true. We are more than our last job.

Good Luck if you are looking for a new job.
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:16
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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It's strange that whenever we are closing in on a deal with customers we take them on a tour of our different labs, not of our different meeting rooms. And we introduce them to some of our principal researchers, not our principal office vampires.

I wonder why.

By the time youre giving them the tour, the customer has already agreed to sign.


The deciding factor is never if the prospective supplier has nice clean labs or not.


In fact clean labs imply not much work is going on. Never trust a scientist with a spotless lab coat.
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:19
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I am firmly in the start / middle of many aspects of this general situation recently, and so will not comment just yet.

But one thing I would like to say: it is a horrible situation to be in if you've completely and unexpectedly lost your position at the age of 54 due to cost-cutting; out-sourcing to India etc. etc. etc.

It impacts your self-esteem, destroys much of that which you've worked extremely hard for and built over the decades, your values, and in many cases leaves an open question as to your financial future. This in-turn may affect the most healthy of us.

I would challenge that it has that efect whether it happens in your 20s, 30s, or 40s.


I know that because it happened to me in my 20s, and i felt exactly as you describe.
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:30
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I would challenge that it has that efect whether it happens in your 20s, 30s, or 40s.


I know that because it happened to me in my 20s, and i felt exactly as you describe.
But when you are in your 20's you have a better chance of getting back on your feet, so I would tend to think it hits harder in your 50's. You might also have more to lose.
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:43
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I would challenge that it has that efect whether it happens in your 20s, 30s, or 40s.


I know that because it happened to me in my 20s, and i felt exactly as you describe.
Yes, agree. The difference is that you will not be classified as quasi "unemployable" on your next job search
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:54
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I am firmly in the start / middle of many aspects of this general situation recently, and so will not comment just yet.

But one thing I would like to say: it is a horrible situation to be in if you've completely and unexpectedly lost your position at the age of 54 due to cost-cutting; out-sourcing to India etc. etc. etc.

It impacts your self-esteem, destroys much of that which you've worked extremely hard for and built over the decades, your values, and in many cases leaves an open question as to your financial future. This in-turn may affect the most healthy of us.
It didn't take me 54 years to experience the same. But: While I am sure there is some discrimination going on do I have first hand experience of the opposite... and there are IT jobs out there at the moment. When my department was closed during the financial crisis should I just have done a long vacation - there simply were no jobs and all the ads were fake.

Good luck. I think you have a much better chance than you might think right now... just don't lose your spirit during your search. It can be very frustrating...
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Old 19.09.2017, 16:56
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I am firmly in the start / middle of many aspects of this general situation recently, and so will not comment just yet.

But one thing I would like to say: it is a horrible situation to be in if you've completely and unexpectedly lost your position at the age of 54 due to cost-cutting; out-sourcing to India etc. etc. etc.

It impacts your self-esteem, destroys much of that which you've worked extremely hard for and built over the decades, your values, and in many cases leaves an open question as to your financial future. This in-turn may affect the most healthy of us.
I am in a meeting as we speak where "jobs will be displaced" (outsourced) add that to going through a tough divorce really makes life a challenge.
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  #69  
Old 19.09.2017, 16:58
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Yes, agree. The difference is that you will not be classified as quasi "unemployable" on your next job search
I said it before and I will say it again: As I am leaving did my comany hire my replacement and on purpose chose the over 50 candidate over the younger one although both had experience and qualifications. I went with a colleagues specializing in placements (I rather do projects...) to a client and the client described a dev role he has with the explicit mentioning of "older candidates are more than welcome for this role".

I am not saying there is no discrimination. I am saying it is a bit overated and while this might have been true in 2009 when the street was full of recently fired 30yr old candidates desperate for any job... in 2017 in Zurich do you have a very good chance to find something.
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Old 19.09.2017, 17:03
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

I'm not over 50 yet (several years from it), but I had an awful experience last year whilst being interviewed over Skype.

I have kept up with technology, worked in a number of high profile companies, I'm not keen on moving around every few months and I have a lot of software and tech skills, but getting comments like "Oh but all the people here are *so* young and dynamic", "with your age, I doubt you'd fit in", "our dynamic guys are all cuttiing edge, I can't see that you would be able to keep up", was a bit jaw dropping.

I dropped that call as soon as I could. Never experienced so much blatant in your face age-ism in Switzerland. I hated it. There ought to be a law against it, it reflects so poorly on the people and culture, Switzerland seems to be very backward place sometimes.

The reality of life is that there are going to be more people, working longer and retiring later, I hope the attitude and the law changes for the better.
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  #71  
Old 19.09.2017, 17:11
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

I'd like to add that this "getting rid of 50+" seems to be a particular issue in the financial industry. It seems to be less extreme elsewhere.

Also, I don't think most companies necessarily systematically get rid of their 50/55+ employees. Rather, once a job is lost for whatever reason, it is difficult to find another one, due to massive prejudice as beautifully outlined in this thread.

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-He may well have to report to someone with less experience then him. How would that help the team dynamics? is it a problem worth taking a chance on?
-He may be experienced, in 'a certain way'. His 30 years of experience may not be very applicable to the way a new company does things.
-The company may actively be looking for younger employees who dont have the weight of family/responsibility/mortgage that could hinder their mobility.
-The 55 year old comes with 55 year old salary expectations. The cost of the extra salary could be more then the cost of giving a 25 year old enough training to do the same job.
-there is a perception that older employees are less malleable and less able to learn new things as quickly. You can argue this point, but the perception is there.
-Aesthetically, companies who hire young talent are percieved to be forward thinking companies with longevity and vigour. the stereotypes of old, gray-haired men in suits in a boardroom having long rambling meetings is one most companies are trying to move away from.
I read way too many "may" here and that is precisely the point: MAY.

You MAY find all of that in any age group. Again, rest assured, I'm in my mid-thirties and I see plenty of that with people my generation.

As newtoswitz says: this is what interviews are for.

And aesthetics - have you seen most companies and how they're set up? All I see is grey-haired male Caucasians with blue ties, but apparently that's just me.

Also, don't forget demographic shifts in the developed world, which are inevitable, so whether you like it or not, whether it's "aesthetically desirable" or not, some companies will HAVE TO rethink their approach otherwise they will quite simply run out of people. And don't tell me they'll just go looking elsewhere or "displace" every job - we all know that doesn't work in the long-run. Never has, never will.
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  #72  
Old 19.09.2017, 17:16
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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The reality of life is that there are going to be more people, working longer and retiring later, I hope the attitude and the law changes for the better.
we're being told all the time that there is going to be a skills shortage as older people retire, and that coincidentally we need to work longer to fill the pensions shortfall.

Time for politicians and CEOs to put their money where their words are and put into place programs that show they mean it.
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  #73  
Old 19.09.2017, 17:22
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

I don't understand why you people don't collect some signatures and make it illegal for companies to ask: age, address, nationality and other personal questions that are so usual here in interviews.

In case of nationality, simple EU/non-EU should suffice for administrative purpose. I have seen plenty of bias against Eastern European nationals, even though they're EU, as opposed to e.g, Norway, Sweden. It has little to do with German language, but more with coming from a poorer country.

If such biases are continued to be allowed, no wonder the age-bias also exists and is legal.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhwLe4gj9Xg
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Old 19.09.2017, 17:23
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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we're being told all the time that there is going to be a skills shortage as older people retire, and that coincidentally we need to work longer to fill the pensions shortfall.

Time for politicians and CEOs to put their money where their words are and put into place programs that show they mean it.
With you on that.

Which is also why I'm irritated by recent discussions about increasing retirement age. Well I'm in favour of that. IF companies actually employ people long enough and both politicians and companies are being held responsible and accountable if they do not. I sure as hell won't support it otherwise.

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I don't understand why you people don't collect some signatures and make it illegal for companies to ask: age, address, nationality and other personal questions that are so usual here in interviews.
Sigh.
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Old 19.09.2017, 17:39
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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With you on that.

Which is also why I'm irritated by recent discussions about increasing retirement age. Well I'm in favour of that. IF companies actually employ people long enough and both politicians and companies are being held responsible and accountable if they do not. I sure as hell won't support it otherwise.



Sigh.
There is also the young people who do not have jobs which seems bizarre to make those who have worked half a century or more work longer whilst younger people cannot get started!
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Old 19.09.2017, 17:46
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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With you on that.

Which is also why I'm irritated by recent discussions about increasing retirement age. Well I'm in favour of that. IF companies actually employ people long enough and both politicians and companies are being held responsible and accountable if they do not. I sure as hell won't support it otherwise.
Just my 2 cents. I managed to tiptoe through my 50's with an old style contract, but early 60's is the new glass ceiling for those outside upper management. The company's pension contributions go up, so it is tempting to just throw out the more expensive folk. I call it "Excel sheet management". So come 62, it was announced in my absence that the team was going to be "rajeuni" = made younger. And on my return I was given 2 days to clear my desk - after 18 years. A bitter pill.

Without the politicians changing the incentives, I really don't know how careers are going to be extended.
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  #77  
Old 19.09.2017, 18:20
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Every step taken to keep old people in work does make it somewhat more difficult to hire younger people.


People have suggested the government should pass legislation...why on earth would they do that?


Keep old people in the office taking up the salary that could go to 2-3 young people? Unemployment shoots up, bad by most peoples standards. No politician is going to rail for a policy that is detrimental in the long run unless he is a short term populist.

The theory is that as old people leave, budgets and room opens up for more then 1 young person. Now, traditionally, this was done when the oldie retired. But times have changed and companies now see that they can get rid of expensive employees, hire cheaper ones (and more than one) and they can wax lyrical about how they offer jobs to so many people, therefore should qualify for a lower tax rate from the kanton.
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Old 19.09.2017, 18:24
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Politicians dont care because it doesnt affect them and higher employment figures makes them look good.


Company bosses dont care, as long as the work is done to an acceptable standard as cheaply as possible.


Young people dont mind because for many, its their only way in to certain industries.


The Cantons dont mind because it reduces their youth unemployment numbers.


The Federal government has bigger things to worry about.


The accountants dont mind because they save money in the long run.


The Tax lawyers dont mind since it allows them to negotiate better deals with the cantons.


The CEO doesnt mind because he doesnt give two hoots about the employment age.


The RAV dont mind because paying the RAV for one oldie is still cheaper then 2-3 young people.


Society doesnt really care since old people are expected to have their wealth by the time they're 50 so it shouldnt affect them too badly.
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Old 19.09.2017, 18:26
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

By the way, and FYI, i dont agree with the practice. I think its despicable. But i can see the reasoning behind it.
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Old 19.09.2017, 18:28
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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People have suggested the government should pass legislation...why on earth would they do that?
Maybe because the government requires us to work to 65, 66, 67 and beyond before we even see one Rappen of our pension, yet a not insigifnicant portion of 55+ struggle to find work if they lose their job or simply don't find any anymore?

Or is it fair that someone who's paid into the system for 30, 35, 40 years will face significantly smaller public pension because some corporations seem to think as of 55 they are useless, unable to learn anything new or at least not at the desired speed (whatever that means), and "too expensive" because they worked for dozens of years already and dare to attach at least some financial importance to that experience?

Which isn't to say I'm necessarily pro-legislation. But certainly one can see this substantial disconnect between politics and economic reality.

I am a young-ish person and I DO mind, very much btw. Even though I am unlikely to face any particular age-related problem for 20 years. But it doesn't take a genius to figure out the above.
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