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Old 27.09.2017, 12:30
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Well, there is your explanation.

100K CHF nowdays is worth more than what 120K CHF did 10 years ago.
This isn't the fault of the companies, the currency is way too overvalued for them to be competitive with higher salaries.
Entirely disagree with that.
In numerous aspects, this is not true:

-Health insurance increased significantly, every year

-Property market prices increased incredibibly, say, average +60% in last 10 years.

-Even rents were much lower and due to the rules, one with an older rent not moving out is much likely to pay a very low rent compare to today's market prices.

-People with older, stronger salaries have been in much better position financially to earn even more (it does not means everyone did profit from that)

-The currency valuation versus other economies does not influence the "swiss salary in the swiss economy". Moderations: talking about earning Swiss salaries, paying Swiss items or services. Also, import should have been much cheaper due to higher cost of the franc, in addition to low vat rate vs much higher rates abroad.

-People with higher salaries years ago, most likely have incremented that or at least compensated the higher cost of living with the annual small percentage increase, still with the basis of their extremely high salary compare to today's reality.

I have numerous exemples of colleagues in that position. Of course, that implies that they stay in the same company, and not changing their rental or property. And their 120K (exemple of allegedely higher salary) worth way more in actual value and in financial advantage than the hypothetic 100K (allegedely lower salary of today).


In all that, what is clear in my opinion, is that why it's true some professions still command a higher salary, and some people can get that nowadays, it's much less common in Switzerland due to various reasons.

Among one of them, is a very long theory I have based on observations and experiences that plenty of managers are cannibalizing their colleagues and subordinates, at least in the IT industry. In essence, creating a duality and rendering engineers to the status of today's factory workers in terms of salary, career evolution, etc... Something not necessarily happening with all companies, some are still valuing collaboration and taking the most out of numerous skills and competencies spread among the entire hierarchy.
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  #122  
Old 27.09.2017, 12:40
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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It's a lot more than 10%

Offshore do my job for approx 20% of my cost, actually even less.

We can joke about quality and results (and there is a lot of evidence to justify the japes) however the spreadsheet does not lie and the cost savings are considerable.
My question with that if your manager was able to outsource your position for 20% or even less. Why stopping there?

Why not continuing the outsourcing and moving the manager role there also, making it even cheaper or more actual saving since it's a percent based on the salary, higher for managers.

Especially that it's even better, providing proximity, direct management, less travelling costs, etc...

Curiously, that is not/rarely happening, because the very same person is able to present alleged improvements in the budget (at the expense of others) and therefore it "looks good" (on paper, I mean on excel or powerpoint) and no need to replace that layer too.

Don't get me wrong, evolution and adaptability are very important for any business today. Let's not pretend that apparent numbers savings by relocating some of the employes abroad are the solution and that it does bring numerous negative impact, over a few years time, in addition with the apparent cost saving for the year in progress.

In fact it's even biased because companies do annual reports, it would be interesting to actually show the measure of such actions over a few years, including the costs of hiring/firing employees, training them, relocations, travels, etc... As well as potential damages to the business and possible opportunities missed by teams who could have been able to bring more to the companies.

I don't want to paint a negative picture of relocations, like people are doing with brexit and the likes. It's a significant evolution, which could be bringing some good. But let's not pretend it's great, or the only way, or without possible terrible consequences for many. To me, it's merely inadequate managers following a trend, reducing their budget and cannibalizing their entire industry at the expense of others and even fooling the very same business they are supposed to manage.
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  #123  
Old 27.09.2017, 15:05
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Curiously, that is not/rarely happening, because the very same person is able to present alleged improvements in the budget (at the expense of others) and therefore it "looks good" (on paper, I mean on excel or powerpoint) and no need to replace that layer too.

Don't get me wrong, evolution and adaptability are very important for any business today. Let's not pretend that apparent numbers savings by relocating some of the employes abroad are the solution and that it does bring numerous negative impact, over a few years time, in addition with the apparent cost saving for the year in progress.

In fact it's even biased because companies do annual reports, it would be interesting to actually show the measure of such actions over a few years, including the costs of hiring/firing employees, training them, relocations, travels, etc... As well as potential damages to the business and possible opportunities missed by teams who could have been able to bring more to the companies.
Agree.

The essence of the problem is that most companies are set up in a way that only short-term results count and that no one's being held accountable for long-term consequences (actually often not even the short-term ones). Careers are built in a "move up fast" way, no matter the cost or implications.

As long as this doesn't fundamentally change, I see no improvements on the horizon on the whole outsourcing-offshoring BS. We all know it hardly ever works. It may save pure salary costs on paper, initially, but speed and quality is almost always significantly lower, so at the end of the day, all things considered, all indirect costs incorporated, it actually costs more. You can see that with minor things - think the stupid IT service desk sitting in bumf-Ihaho, where instead of spending 2 minutes to solve a simple problem, you now spend 25 trying to resolve it remotely. Companies seem to refuse to realize that while that person in bumf-Idaho may earn less on paper, the person on the other end who is still being paid whatever salary they are being paid is now literally wasting 25 minutes instead of 2 and that this comes at the respective cost.

And I can't count the times certain people in our organization cried that they "can't immediately find qualified people" for the very functions they had offshored and/or outsourced to whatever country was the favorite du jour a mere year earlier, only to realize it doesn't work at all and they had to take it all back.
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  #124  
Old 27.09.2017, 15:10
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I agree. I think kids know the reality themselves better than us actually, they do not need a grown up telling them how high their expectations are. That said, if one says "I got your back, you are like millions of others...yet I wonder if you can show that there is something exceptional in you" - probably will have different motivational effect on a kid" than "you are a genius (like me), you better not disappoint". They also know that we are no geniuses and that the window of easy employability is small.

What does it mean to be the best?

Everybody is good at something. Everybody can strive to be the best at something. Being the best at something is not the same as being the best at everything.

There is a danger though that kids will only concentarte on stuf they are already good at and try to get better, because that's where they will get the most praise. When I was at school I wasn't allowed to join the choir or play in the school orchestra because I wasn't good enough. The music teachers put most of their energy into making the good kids even better because having a high flying orchestra was good publicity for the school. The rest of us were just kept occupied without really learning anything. I deeply regretted that. Ditto with the sports teams etc. Good educators also spend time with weaker pupils, not because they believe they can become as good as the best, but because it's just a valuable part of their education.
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  #125  
Old 27.09.2017, 16:47
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Regardless of the pros and cons, whysand wherefores, outsourcing, offshoring, nearshoring etc is here to stay, and no doubt would make an entertaining thread.

Coming back to the topic, I'm unfortunately in the same age bracket as the OP and fully expect this salary to be the highest I achieve.
Relatively sure the Swiss salary will be my depts downfall and we'll be nearshored to an existing location.
Trying to get another permie position in IT would be exceedingly difficult in this country at my age, as the other posts are testament to.

It is what it is.
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  #126  
Old 27.09.2017, 17:09
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Another interesting maxim: If you work as a freelancer you should max your hours worked so you get max return whereas if you are employed, you should minimize your hours worked to maximize the salary per hours worked ratio!
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  #127  
Old 27.09.2017, 17:15
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Relatively sure the Swiss salary will be my depts downfall and we'll be nearshored to an existing location.
Trying to get another permie position in IT would be exceedingly difficult in this country at my age, as the other posts are testament to.

It is what it is.
Relatively sure that any depts downfall is not due to "Swiss salary" but a conjunction of numerous factors including weaker economy, bad investments, short term focus regarding budget and apparent "good results", relative perception of success (if a company is not making xx percent its bad, while it could be in fact a normal healthy situation in times of crisis), negative attitudes, increased competitions, fast changing environments and markets, poor or lack of trainings, investments in R&D taking long time to generate profits.... All which are indicators of poor management, especially if the response to all of the above is immediately relocation.

As for your age, i'm much younger yet, I have far too many experiences and i'm too great at observation for anyone's good. In fact, in theory age is not a problem in IT, I have seen old timers very interested, capable and interesting, able to switch to newer technologies. Sometimes a bit slower than a fresher geek, but they brought good skills. I also seen fresh geeks who are able to formulate a long list of competencies on a cv, yet who are absolute nightmare to work with and have terrible skills incompatible with production environments. Almost impossible to improve or change since they are allegedely perfect.
Who's handling all of that? HR and managers. Quite conveniently, the managers like the barely able young because it empowers them to stay in their higher position. HR, out of the loop, easily fooled by technical words they barely understand, just ticking boxes of "politically acceptable" and de facto uses assumptions to struck out old timers.
Steve Jobs, who I particularly hate his products and company, allegedely said: "“I’ve never met one of you who didn’t suck. I’ve never known an HR person who had anything but a mediocre mentality.”. Now I completely agree with that, but it's not politically correct to say that and it's not in anyone's interest to officially admit it. It seems to be more acceptable to just "play with the rules" and "fit the current system".

So your problem is not your age, in theory, is who are deciding and why they are deciding so. Unfortunately, it's a reality because they don't always decide based on actual competencies, they most often use a strong filtering because it gives them less hassles, filtering the "uncool, untrendy people based on stereotype". While in fact, instead of receiving thousands of applications for a position and bitching about how some are too old, too long, etc... they could realistically make some better filters to receive less quantity, more quality, and consider each candidates with the right skills for interviews.

But why bother? every person in power are happy with the situation, managers get pay well to maintain the context, HR people are happy to play local gods and decider, etc... All perfectly well oiled pathetic system.

In the end to me it all just look like a game, a pathetic role playing game with numerous cheaters and abusers and a few left out. Sad but true.
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  #128  
Old 27.09.2017, 17:35
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Agree.

The essence of the problem is that most companies are set up in a way that only short-term results count and that no one's being held accountable for long-term consequences (actually often not even the short-term ones). Careers are built in a "move up fast" way, no matter the cost or implications.

As long as this doesn't fundamentally change, I see no improvements on the horizon on the whole outsourcing-offshoring BS. We all know it hardly ever works. It may save pure salary costs on paper, initially, but speed and quality is almost always significantly lower, so at the end of the day, all things considered, all indirect costs incorporated, it actually costs more. You can see that with minor things - think the stupid IT service desk sitting in bumf-Ihaho, where instead of spending 2 minutes to solve a simple problem, you now spend 25 trying to resolve it remotely. Companies seem to refuse to realize that while that person in bumf-Idaho may earn less on paper, the person on the other end who is still being paid whatever salary they are being paid is now literally wasting 25 minutes instead of 2 and that this comes at the respective cost.

And I can't count the times certain people in our organization cried that they "can't immediately find qualified people" for the very functions they had offshored and/or outsourced to whatever country was the favorite du jour a mere year earlier, only to realize it doesn't work at all and they had to take it all back.

Allow me to respectfully disagree with you.

First of all, there is no such thing as "outsourcing-offshoring BS". Yes, there are many examples in which results were completely disastrous. However they are minority: the outsourcing trend has been strong for decades. Outsourcing allows a company to concentrate on its core business instead of owning and operating complex IT systems that will become obsolete in a few years. Nowadays there is very little financial and strategic sense for a non-IT company to "own" and operate too much IT stuff as it was in the past.

Second, members of this forum should stop whining about Indians or Polish IT workers being able to do an equivalent or better job for a lower salary. Each Swiss IT job that is outsourced to, for example, Poland, is another entire family that will rise in the social ranks. The guy 50-year old, 120k-CHF-entitled-IT-guy in CH, or anywhere else in the "first world", did have the chance to develop himself/herself, with much better educational and professional opportunities, than the guy from Warsaw or Mumbai ever had. And in the aggregate of all the benefits and problems of globalization, more people are better off in the world, that's a fact.

I fail to understand why someone feels entitled to his/her job when someone else less experienced or "cheaper" can do the same thing. As you grow older, you either need to climb the ladder, take more responsibilities, manage more people, become an entrepreneur, or build up a wealth pot that will allow you to "retire" early. If, instead of comfortably navigating the corporate world with pompous benefits and a "120k" salary, you had reduced your standard of living a little for a few years, took some risks and invested in your own business, now you would not be worried about losing your job (the same applies for saving money and investing passively in bonds and stocks).

I am sorry if it sounds harsh but that's the reality nowadays, whether you like it or not.
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  #129  
Old 27.09.2017, 17:49
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Allow me to respectfully disagree with you.


Second, members of this forum should stop whining about Indians or Polish IT workers being able to do an equivalent or better job for a lower salary. Each Swiss IT job that is outsourced to, for example, Poland, is another entire family that will rise in the social ranks. The guy 50-year old, 120k-CHF-entitled-IT-guy in CH, or anywhere else in the "first world", did have the chance to develop himself/herself, with much better educational and professional opportunities, than the guy from Warsaw or Mumbai ever had. And in the aggregate of all the benefits and problems of globalization, more people are better off in the world, that's a fact.

I fail to understand why someone feels entitled to his/her job when someone else less experienced or "cheaper" can do the same thing. As you grow older, you either need to climb the ladder, take more responsibilities, manage more people, become an entrepreneur, or build up a wealth pot that will allow you to "retire" early. If, instead of comfortably navigating the corporate world with pompous benefits and a "120k" salary, you had reduced your standard of living a little for a few years, took some risks and invested in your own business, now you would not be worried about losing your job (the same applies for saving money and investing passively in bonds and stocks).

I am sorry if it sounds harsh but that's the reality nowadays, whether you like it or not.
Ouch my eyes are sore.

The guy from Warsaw (or the girl, for what it matters), already have very decent opportunities, offering good educational and professional opportunities. The one I know are in their own society, and starting in Europe (something which has nothing to do with Switzerland) are in much better position than the 110K CHF salary earner in Switzerland, in terms of prospect, property access, etc...
That is a bit risky and innapropriate to assume something along* that this outsourcing allowed to educate the poor third world country ignorants.

*i'm trying to barely remain vague, on purpose, not to make a clear accusation

As for the climbing the ladder, in numerous companies the only opportunity a great engineer has, is to switch to managerial line simply because that's the only one with more steps in the ladder. Companies like google, don't have that,as they have advanced roles like "google fellow" (admitingly hard to get and demanding lot, same as for Vice President, etc...). These people have years of practical experience of the job and can bring a lot, something denied by the managers firing them and taking cheaper.
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  #130  
Old 27.09.2017, 17:55
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Allow me to respectfully disagree with you.

First of all, there is no such thing as "outsourcing-offshoring BS". Yes, there are many examples in which results were completely disastrous. However they are minority: the outsourcing trend has been strong for decades. Outsourcing allows a company to concentrate on its core business instead of owning and operating complex IT systems that will become obsolete in a few years. Nowadays there is very little financial and strategic sense for a non-IT company to "own" and operate too much IT stuff as it was in the past.

Second, members of this forum should stop whining about Indians or Polish IT workers being able to do an equivalent or better job for a lower salary. Each Swiss IT job that is outsourced to, for example, Poland, is another entire family that will rise in the social ranks. The guy 50-year old, 120k-CHF-entitled-IT-guy in CH, or anywhere else in the "first world", did have the chance to develop himself/herself, with much better educational and professional opportunities, than the guy from Warsaw or Mumbai ever had. And in the aggregate of all the benefits and problems of globalization, more people are better off in the world, that's a fact.

I fail to understand why someone feels entitled to his/her job when someone else less experienced or "cheaper" can do the same thing. As you grow older, you either need to climb the ladder, take more responsibilities, manage more people, become an entrepreneur, or build up a wealth pot that will allow you to "retire" early. If, instead of comfortably navigating the corporate world with pompous benefits and a "120k" salary, you had reduced your standard of living a little for a few years, took some risks and invested in your own business, now you would not be worried about losing your job (the same applies for saving money and investing passively in bonds and stocks).

I am sorry if it sounds harsh but that's the reality nowadays, whether you like it or not.
Jeeez that´s me failed on all accounts then, how about when you do all the above and then get the rug pulled from under your feet because beancounters are evil assholes born of satan. The printing industry dabbled with outsourcing and failed miserably. Oh they went and printed in India, in Poland, China, Ukraine and Indochina, wherever a buck could be saved the big players and captains of industry outsourced at any cost and cost it did, dearly! What came back from those far flung countries was at best fourth rate.
With some exemption to the rule you would on occasion find stellar printing at the cutting edge of the countries capabilities, one or two even as good as a garden verity European printer with a Speedmaster in the garage. Did our majestic leaders and beancounters learn? Nope! So they bought their "Partners" printing equipment and technology that would make you gasp and believe in Startrek and now you get crap printing on state of the art tech.
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  #131  
Old 27.09.2017, 20:30
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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First of all, there is no such thing as "outsourcing-offshoring BS". Yes, there are many examples in which results were completely disastrous. However they are minority: the outsourcing trend has been strong for decades. Outsourcing allows a company to concentrate on its core business instead of owning and operating complex IT systems that will become obsolete in a few years. Nowadays there is very little financial and strategic sense for a non-IT company to "own" and operate too much IT stuff as it was in the past
That's a rather naïve way of looking at it. It's nothing to do with 'IT systems' as such, as though we're merely looking for the cheapest place to locate a rack of servers. It's to do with the culture of knowledge that a company builds up (i.e. its core business). Outsourcing this is where the disasters happen.
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Old 27.09.2017, 20:53
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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What does it mean to be the best?

Everybody is good at something. Everybody can strive to be the best at something. Being the best at something is not the same as being the best at everything.

There is a danger though that kids will only concentarte on stuf they are already good at and try to get better, because that's where they will get the most praise. When I was at school I wasn't allowed to join the choir or play in the school orchestra because I wasn't good enough. The music teachers put most of their energy into making the good kids even better because having a high flying orchestra was good publicity for the school. The rest of us were just kept occupied without really learning anything. I deeply regretted that. Ditto with the sports teams etc. Good educators also spend time with weaker pupils, not because they believe they can become as good as the best, but because it's just a valuable part of their education.
I was also banned from the choir & the school orchestra plus I was useless at sports. Who knew we are at heart basically soul mates
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Old 28.09.2017, 00:17
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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What does it mean to be the best?

Everybody is good at something. Everybody can strive to be the best at something. Being the best at something is not the same as being the best at everything.

There is a danger though that kids will only concentarte on stuf they are already good at and try to get better, because that's where they will get the most praise. When I was at school I wasn't allowed to join the choir or play in the school orchestra because I wasn't good enough. The music teachers put most of their energy into making the good kids even better because having a high flying orchestra was good publicity for the school. The rest of us were just kept occupied without really learning anything. I deeply regretted that. Ditto with the sports teams etc. Good educators also spend time with weaker pupils, not because they believe they can become as good as the best, but because it's just a valuable part of their education.
I totally get this. And past few days actually had a few debates why it is good to confront and develop one's not perfect points or what others see as mediocre ones..and why not wait for somebody else to support or challenge us, and that we should go ahead and explore those and develop them on our own..

I totally agree that a parent should not support an offspring only in those exceptional things...but in anything a kid wants to do. My career is in weaker elements, special needs, re-start, repair, remotivate, in fact. Those who were not gifted with easy success or exceptional skillsets. Who need more time...or more patience or who are not fast and successful. Because it is all very relative, the pace and definition of depth and success, the best conditions, etc. I also think there is too much pressure on very small kids and picking up new skills later in life is considered less marketable...less rewarding. When it actually has a huge impact on increasing quality of one's cognition and life in general and people can still excell in whatever they put their mind into.

I think when people say "be the best in what you are doing" is not meant comparatively, as to be better than others, but maybe put effort/rigour/heart into what we have chosen as opposed to just half-ass try it. The need to accompany kids when they need it and when they believe in themselves before they shut down..is beyond the issue of a few exceptionally excellent child performers.
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Old 28.09.2017, 00:58
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I think when people say "be the best in what you are doing" is not meant comparatively, as to be better than others, but maybe put effort/rigour/heart into what we have chosen as opposed to just half-ass try it.
I agree with your post entirely, and especially with respect to the above, I think you nailed it and explained it much better than I did with my few words above thread. When my dad said/says "be the best" he meant/means exactly that: half-ass try it = mediocrity = it won't be tolerated in our family.

Sure, there are plenty of geniuses and "better than us" out there, whom we aspire to learn from as much as we can and emulate, but even then...I think my brother and I turned out OK after all, i.e. the "be the best" did not ruin our psychological development or throw us into the pits of eternal despair for trying to achieve impossible goals, as some of the posts seem to imply. Rather, it keeps us hungry for high achievement and improvement of our own selves, every day.
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Old 28.09.2017, 01:21
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Capo at least in my case, the IT Service Desk was just a random easily understandable and relatable example. I don't work in IT myself. But I see the same horrific results of outsourcing and offshoring in other areas and I cannot think of one example where it has actually reduced anyone's workload or made anything easier. The opposite is the case and quite literally always.

Also, it's not like any private company gives a shit about the greater good in the world. They have zero interest in "giving poor people in other countries a chance" nor does their outsourcing or offshoring make the world as a whole "better off". Quite the opposite - in rich and poor countries alike, the rich get richer, that is all. It's not even about effectiveness or a supposed desire to focus on whatever core business they are in. What they care about is themselves, their job and their money. They reduce immediately visible costs because this is how "success" is measured.

It's not about having a "sense of entitlement". If all the people in whatever country may curreny be preffered for offshoring are so terrifically qualified, and work for so much less too, then why not just move companies there entirely? But that really never happens, does it.

Companies, particularly large ones, underestimate (or don't care about) the value of expertise and look at everyone as an interchangeable resource (except themselves of course), yet at the same time constantly cry about "not finding the right, qualified people" anymore. Well, can't have it both ways, can you.
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Old 28.09.2017, 08:46
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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...yet at the same time constantly cry about "not finding the right, qualified people" anymore....
I think they mean "the right, qualified people for what we want to pay them".

Truth is, if you work for a large company you are always at the mercy of some idiots decision making. This is fact and always has been.

The answer is find small companies to work for, hopefully without an HR person.
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Old 28.09.2017, 12:22
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Each Swiss IT job that is outsourced to, for example, Poland, is another entire family that will rise in the social ranks.
I though about what you said again, and that particularly attracted my attention.

A reminder that this alleged "creation" of job somewhere else is based on the destruction of a job (also somewhere else). A possibly more consequent destruction since there's potentially lot to lose in the process (loss of social network, status, and numerous other issues).

As for rising the social ranks, it's again, imho, half wrong, half incomplete and half incorrect. Because first, there could have been other opportunities for the very same person accepting that relocated job. Next, because this alleged rise in fact, could be as well just move the "social rank level" elsewhere. I mean it's not necessarily a rise up, it;s hardly expending and reducing the "entry/middle class", by a simple effect of +1 -1 elsewhere. Last, since it destroy local jobs, and by the observation of it, numerous IT jobs, it actually impact significantly some "entry/middle class" in the countries where the jobs are lost.

I disagree that it's merely "giving opportunities", it's clearly a destructive process, without clear strategy beside short term financial gain, and endangering local economies.

Evolution, adaption, yes. Selling that as the only option is wrong and incorrect. There is always numerous ways to make it work, some are more difficult and some are less trendy. Yet they are possible. I remain convinced that the entire economy is rotten and manipulated by a few in order to gain at the expense of others. Caution: I don't support communism or the likes, I expect at least some honesty in admiting the situation. More profit? Fair enough. Is there a better way of doing that without potentially destroying your colleagues situation simply to present better numbers? Is there a better way to empower your team to reach even better results in a different way?
I believe there is, which is why I bother waking up everyday.
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Old 28.09.2017, 13:57
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I though about what you said again, and that particularly attracted my attention.

A reminder that this alleged "creation" of job somewhere else is based on the destruction of a job (also somewhere else). A possibly more consequent destruction since there's potentially lot to lose in the process (loss of social network, status, and numerous other issues).

As for rising the social ranks, it's again, imho, half wrong, half incomplete and half incorrect. Because first, there could have been other opportunities for the very same person accepting that relocated job. Next, because this alleged rise in fact, could be as well just move the "social rank level" elsewhere. I mean it's not necessarily a rise up, it;s hardly expending and reducing the "entry/middle class", by a simple effect of +1 -1 elsewhere. Last, since it destroy local jobs, and by the observation of it, numerous IT jobs, it actually impact significantly some "entry/middle class" in the countries where the jobs are lost.

I disagree that it's merely "giving opportunities", it's clearly a destructive process, without clear strategy beside short term financial gain, and endangering local economies.

Evolution, adaption, yes. Selling that as the only option is wrong and incorrect. There is always numerous ways to make it work, some are more difficult and some are less trendy. Yet they are possible. I remain convinced that the entire economy is rotten and manipulated by a few in order to gain at the expense of others. Caution: I don't support communism or the likes, I expect at least some honesty in admiting the situation. More profit? Fair enough. Is there a better way of doing that without potentially destroying your colleagues situation simply to present better numbers? Is there a better way to empower your team to reach even better results in a different way?
I believe there is, which is why I bother waking up everyday.
That´s not how we humans roll. The theory of tragedy of the commons applies here too. In this case it is humans as a resource to be exploited.
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Old 28.09.2017, 15:43
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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That´s not how we humans roll. The theory of tragedy of the commons applies here too. In this case it is humans as a resource to be exploited.
All jobs, the entire economy, ultimately depend on people having money and spending it. Even if you're in a B2B job rather than B2C, your customers or their customers will likely be B2C. If the common man stops spending money, sooner or later we all suffer.

Creating poverty and exploitation is thus not in the interests of Capitalism. Capitalism wants as many people as possible to have disposable cash so they can go out and buy stuff. Make people poor and you sabotage that cycle.
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Old 28.09.2017, 16:05
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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All jobs, the entire economy, ultimately depend on people having money and spending it. Even if you're in a B2B job rather than B2C, your customers or their customers will likely be B2C. If the common man stops spending money, sooner or later we all suffer.

Creating poverty and exploitation is thus not in the interests of Capitalism. Capitalism wants as many people as possible to have disposable cash so they can go out and buy stuff. Make people poor and you sabotage that cycle.
Nice textbook answer, however the reality shows that capitalism really does eat its children, at least the predator capitalism practiced in the US, as for Europe the "Soziale Marktwirtschaft is a contradiction of terms, capitalism doesn´t want to provide everybody with disposable cash it wants everybody to provide disposable cash to a few. Perhaps Marx was correct after all.
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