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  #141  
Old 28.09.2017, 19:30
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

If offshoring were that bad, then new non-offshoring companies would have eliminated the inefficient ones, sooner or later.
Some countries try to shield some groups - for example farmers in Switzerland and in EU have subsidies. All the state workers as well (in many European countries probably about half of the workforce is on state payroll).
Those who don't organize and have no lobby are squeezed even more, due to free movement of people - Western Europe workers' salaries were depressed due to the high immigration in recent years. Should the most profitable businesses and their highly paid specialists help pay for the average Joe in the name of social cohesion and solidarity, or should he be pitted against the fiercest, lowest cost, cut throat competition in the name of the gains for those who happen to be at right place in the food chain?
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  #142  
Old 28.09.2017, 20:15
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Creating poverty and exploitation is thus not in the interests of Capitalism. Capitalism wants as many people as possible to have disposable cash so they can go out and buy stuff. Make people poor and you sabotage that cycle.
That's true, but capitalism won't necessarily organize itself that way naturally (in the absence of laws compelling them to do so) since companies are in competition with each other to increase their individual NPVs. This is equivalent to what happens in biological evolution: nothing is done for the 'good of the species', it's all about individual genes. So companies will compete with each other until it's maybe too late for there to be a population with sufficient disposable cash (tragedy of the commons).
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  #143  
Old 29.09.2017, 12:49
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Ouch my eyes are sore.

The guy from Warsaw (or the girl, for what it matters), already have very decent opportunities, offering good educational and professional opportunities. The one I know are in their own society, and starting in Europe (something which has nothing to do with Switzerland) are in much better position than the 110K CHF salary earner in Switzerland, in terms of prospect, property access, etc...
That is a bit risky and innapropriate to assume something along* that this outsourcing allowed to educate the poor third world country ignorants.

*i'm trying to barely remain vague, on purpose, not to make a clear accusation
I didn't follow you on that. So, should outsourcing be banned and thus the job is generates in Poland be eliminated? Isn't less people in the world become better off?

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As for the climbing the ladder, in numerous companies the only opportunity a great engineer has, is to switch to managerial line simply because that's the only one with more steps in the ladder. Companies like google, don't have that,as they have advanced roles like "google fellow" (admitingly hard to get and demanding lot, same as for Vice President, etc...). These people have years of practical experience of the job and can bring a lot, something denied by the managers firing them and taking cheaper.
Well, unfortunately not all companies act in a sector where margins are very high and there is an abundance money to experiment. A guy who is extremely experienced in COBOL has no value if there isn't a market for it. If a recent graduate produce the same stuff, earning 80k, as a 50-year old earning 120k, why it is problem to take the "cheaper" guy?
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  #144  
Old 29.09.2017, 13:02
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Well, unfortunately not all companies act in a sector where margins are very high and there is an abundance money to experiment. A guy who is extremely experienced in COBOL has no value if there isn't a market for it. If a recent graduate produce the same stuff, earning 80k, as a 50-year old earning 120k, why it is problem to take the "cheaper" guy?
The question is why is the cheaper guy earning as much as 80k if it's that easy?
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  #145  
Old 29.09.2017, 13:15
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Capo at least in my case, the IT Service Desk was just a random easily understandable and relatable example. I don't work in IT myself. But I see the same horrific results of outsourcing and offshoring in other areas and I cannot think of one example where it has actually reduced anyone's workload or made anything easier. The opposite is the case and quite literally always.

Also, it's not like any private company gives a shit about the greater good in the world. They have zero interest in "giving poor people in other countries a chance" nor does their outsourcing or offshoring make the world as a whole "better off". Quite the opposite - in rich and poor countries alike, the rich get richer, that is all. It's not even about effectiveness or a supposed desire to focus on whatever core business they are in. What they care about is themselves, their job and their money. They reduce immediately visible costs because this is how "success" is measured.

It's not about having a "sense of entitlement". If all the people in whatever country may curreny be preffered for offshoring are so terrifically qualified, and work for so much less too, then why not just move companies there entirely? But that really never happens, does it.

Companies, particularly large ones, underestimate (or don't care about) the value of expertise and look at everyone as an interchangeable resource (except themselves of course), yet at the same time constantly cry about "not finding the right, qualified people" anymore. Well, can't have it both ways, can you.
I cannot criticize anything on your post. Bravo, but it sounds like as if it was wrote by an ideologist.

Of course a private company doesn't give a shit about the greater good. Where did I say they do? They want to maximize their shareholder's return. However, if you look what happened from 1990 to now, the improvement in the world has been remarkable: 9% live below the poverty line, before it was 33%. 1 billion people does not suffer anymore from hunger like in 1990. The average income in Poland is 6 times greater. All that thanks to the spread of capitalism.

I am not defending companies in CH that offshore jobs, nor I think I would like to see people in their 50's being fired. I am truly and strongly against it. What I saying is that the world is now globalized, you like it or not, and the WHOLE world is better off. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.

If ".... Companies underestimate the value of expertise and look at everyone as an interchangeable resource..", and you think it's wrong, well, sooner or later the market, the customers, and the employees will punish these companies. But the only thing that someone can do NOW to not be in a bad position is to work harder, take risks, be innovative, etc. A deer in the wild won't think "...oh, how unfair those predators are..."... He will instead be alert, take the first move, or run like hell.
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  #146  
Old 29.09.2017, 13:18
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I think they mean "the right, qualified people for what we want to pay them".

Truth is, if you work for a large company you are always at the mercy of some idiots decision making. This is fact and always has been.

The answer is find small companies to work for, hopefully without an HR person.
I completely agree, but there is also the other side of the coin: in a small company they will find it out rather quickly whether you are "expensive" or not.
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  #147  
Old 29.09.2017, 13:22
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Nice textbook answer, however the reality shows that capitalism really does eat its children, at least the predator capitalism practiced in the US, as for Europe the "Soziale Marktwirtschaft is a contradiction of terms, capitalism doesn´t want to provide everybody with disposable cash it wants everybody to provide disposable cash to a few. Perhaps Marx was correct after all.
Let's put ideologies and personal beliefs aside: show me the numbers to prove your point.
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  #148  
Old 29.09.2017, 14:19
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I didn't follow you on that. So, should outsourcing be banned and thus the job is generates in Poland be eliminated? Isn't less people in the world become better off?



Well, unfortunately not all companies act in a sector where margins are very high and there is an abundance money to experiment. A guy who is extremely experienced in COBOL has no value if there isn't a market for it. If a recent graduate produce the same stuff, earning 80k, as a 50-year old earning 120k, why it is problem to take the "cheaper" guy?
Point 2 you are making the dangerous assumption that the 50's year old guy is not able to cope with upgrading his skill, and that he's solely capable of using old technologies.
You are also focusing on deprecated skills, which is an entirely different topic, and entirely not linked to my comment.
As well as the employer/employee both have some responsibility in training, I can not possibly blame only the employee if in 2017, his main skill is solely COBOL. So let's close that incorrect parenthesis here,

My comment was about a limited ladder for engineers, and the potential they can bring on top of their technologies, for the operational aspect. It's great to have new workforce, cheaper, and using containers like "docker". It's cool, it's trendy, and its on demand. There's another thing to know how it all fits in the business, how to actually manage and maintain a production system, how to handle customers, how to react to issues, how to secure these environments, etc... All which are require numerous set of skills, which, without doubt from my experiences, is very lacking in many of these cheap, fresh labour.


As for Poland, maybe forget it as its a complex topic. I just opposed your view focused solely on alleged creation, since: it implies another destruction elsewhere, and since Polish people had other opportunities anyway, different ones. It's merely a transfer, does that makes the world a better place, I will entirely differ.
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  #149  
Old 29.09.2017, 14:27
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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I am not defending companies in CH that offshore jobs, nor I think I would like to see people in their 50's being fired. I am truly and strongly against it. What I saying is that the world is now globalized, you like it or not, and the WHOLE world is better off. It's not my opinion, it's a fact.
.
Definitely your opinion, not a fact.
What criteria are you using to claim the world is better off?? Financial, economical?

Frankly, when I see most societies values of success, attitudes, and the amount of idiot having a iphone, I clearly disagree with you. Maybe some people have more money, overall, and there are facts to prove it. Is that better off, that is an entirely different conclusion.

As well as how tolerance between people is dimmer than kardashian's intelligence and how the technologies are used, it makes my stomach ache. Same as how many cultures this globalisation is destroying, and the impact on the environment, including the numerous species now extinct.

Looking at the brighter side, let's say there is a massive room for improvement in probably all aspects of that "globalised modern society". And that's a fact.
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  #150  
Old 29.09.2017, 14:32
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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The question is why is the cheaper guy earning as much as 80k if it's that easy?
Because 80K is nothing, without the reference of the country where this salary is offered in exchange of some activities generating value for the business.

So maybe it's easy, but it brings something for a given business, therefore, it's justifying maintaining that role in that location, with that salary.

And easiness is not taken into consideration when giving salaries otherwise my managers would all be much poorer, and I'd be much richer.
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  #151  
Old 29.09.2017, 15:48
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Because 80K is nothing, without the reference of the country where this salary is offered in exchange of some activities generating value for the business.

So maybe it's easy, but it brings something for a given business, therefore, it's justifying maintaining that role in that location, with that salary.

And easiness is not taken into consideration when giving salaries otherwise my managers would all be much poorer, and I'd be much richer.
There is no requirement to do it in CH, could easily be done in France, Germany or Italy as a fraction of the cost without language issues. I guess company directors are not taking their obligations to their shareholders seriously.
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  #152  
Old 01.10.2017, 03:07
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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A guy who is extremely experienced in COBOL has no value if there isn't a market for it. If a recent graduate produce the same stuff, earning 80k, as a 50-year old earning 120k, why it is problem to take the "cheaper" guy?
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The question is why is the cheaper guy earning as much as 80k if it's that easy?
Because the other younger / cheaper guys don't find Cobol sexy enough.

Also there's the point that nobody seems to want to study the manuals any more. It's a very useful skill in that sphere, and the Cobol manuals comprehensively beat anything available for, say, Java.

On the other hand, I've done Cobol myself, and I realise how easy it could be to get trapped doing just that and that alone. Great for the odd 3 month filler-in contract if you can find one, though.
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  #153  
Old 02.10.2017, 12:49
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

Looks like this Offshoring-/Outsourcing hype is fading:


https://insideparadeplatz.ch/2017/10...ing-wahnsinns/


.... finally!
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  #154  
Old 02.10.2017, 13:33
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Point 2 you are making the dangerous assumption that the 50's year old guy is not able to cope with upgrading his skill, and that he's solely capable of using old technologies.

You are also focusing on deprecated skills, which is an entirely different topic, and entirely not linked to my comment.
As well as the employer/employee both have some responsibility in training, I can not possibly blame only the employee if in 2017, his main skill is solely COBOL. So let's close that incorrect parenthesis here,
Where did I make that assumption?! Some 50-year olds, a small group, do think they are entitled for their jobs and simply refuse to learn new things, take more responsibilities, and adapt to new times. I did not say ALL!!!!

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My comment was about a limited ladder for engineers, and the potential they can bring on top of their technologies, for the operational aspect. It's great to have new workforce, cheaper, and using containers like "docker". It's cool, it's trendy, and its on demand. There's another thing to know how it all fits in the business, how to actually manage and maintain a production system, how to handle customers, how to react to issues, how to secure these environments, etc... All which are require numerous set of skills, which, without doubt from my experiences, is very lacking in many of these cheap, fresh labour.
In the end of the day, it's consumers, companies, and employees that will put a value in your/my work. If the "fresh labour" as you speak is lacking certain skills, but these skills are no longer in demand or customers and companies cannot put a value on them, so we can we do?

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As for Poland, maybe forget it as its a complex topic. I just opposed your view focused solely on alleged creation, since: it implies another destruction elsewhere, and since Polish people had other opportunities anyway, different ones. It's merely a transfer, does that makes the world a better place, I will entirely differ.
People in Poland have benefited from the fact that they are now capable of doing the jobs that once were only done by expensive labor in the West.

Last edited by Capo; 02.10.2017 at 13:45.
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  #155  
Old 02.10.2017, 13:42
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Definitely your opinion, not a fact.
What criteria are you using to claim the world is better off?? Financial, economical?

Frankly, when I see most societies values of success, attitudes, and the amount of idiot having a iphone, I clearly disagree with you. Maybe some people have more money, overall, and there are facts to prove it. Is that better off, that is an entirely different conclusion.

As well as how tolerance between people is dimmer than kardashian's intelligence and how the technologies are used, it makes my stomach ache. Same as how many cultures this globalisation is destroying, and the impact on the environment, including the numerous species now extinct.

Looking at the brighter side, let's say there is a massive room for improvement in probably all aspects of that "globalised modern society". And that's a fact.

- People living in extreme poverty declined by 80% since 1970
- From 1988 to now the average middle and bottom bracket of the population saw an increase in pay of 40%.
- Life expectancy difference between the most rich and the most poor has never been small.
- Mortality rate is half of that of 1990.

Yes, I agree. There is a massive room for improvement and a lot of things don't work well.
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  #156  
Old 02.10.2017, 13:43
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Because 80K is nothing, without the reference of the country where this salary is offered in exchange of some activities generating value for the business.

So maybe it's easy, but it brings something for a given business, therefore, it's justifying maintaining that role in that location, with that salary.

And easiness is not taken into consideration when giving salaries otherwise my managers would all be much poorer, and I'd be much richer.
Why you aren't a manager then?
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  #157  
Old 02.10.2017, 18:32
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Why you aren't a manager then?
Are you genuinely interested or you are just trying to make a point?

Anyway, You'd be surprised, I had several opportunities to be promoted towards managerial position, which I turned down several times. At the time it sound like the right thing to do, now I am not so sure. I also acted as manager, officially, for given projects. These projects, thanks to my contribution, succeeded. They were doomed to fail without my efforts, so I was told afterwards by actual managers.

Also, being a manager in a given business is not the dream for everyone and certainly not the evidence of success. There are other high position, outside management which command a high rank in a company, along with more responsibilities and rewards, like being a "google fellow engineer" for example.

Let's keep going, why I am not a google fellow? Clearly, I don't work at google, my own career path is limited at least 3 ranks below Google fellow. Also, I honestly don't have all the skills yet, still improving a few. I would certainly need a newer environment to actually improve as well. Excuses? No, let's take example of "bug bounty", numerous companies consider that as a successful contribution to the company, especially if one discover zero deal exploit and vulnerabilities. I have by far the highest amount of bug report raised, quite likely in the entire company of +2000 employee. Nobody gives a sh*te about that, I was even complained upon that several times. Indeed, I learned the lesson and stopped doing that recently.

There are also numerous other reasons like actual interest in engineering, pursuit of specific targets I have, numerous skills in computing, etc...

I'm still young, unfortunately, with ageing and the behaviour present in the businesses I worked for so far, and my perception of the industry, I more and more feel that to be in control of a career in Switzerland and "get a slice of the pie", being a manager is mandatory. That is, of course, if one has to slave for a business, having your own company would be an entirely different situation, more challenging yet more appealing.

Anyway being a manager for a given business is not something I pursue, and, for me, not interesting unless I actually have the will to actually manage that part of the business. I require some level of personal interest of passion to accomplish given tasks.

Satisfied? Unless you only wanted to point out that I was actually not a manager?

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Old 02.10.2017, 18:50
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Re: Lower salaries for over-50s

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Where did I make that assumption?! Some 50-year olds, a small group, do think they are entitled for their jobs and simply refuse to learn new things, take more responsibilities, and adapt to new times. I did not say ALL!!!!



In the end of the day, it's consumers, companies, and employees that will put a value in your/my work. If the "fresh labour" as you speak is lacking certain skills, but these skills are no longer in demand or customers and companies cannot put a value on them, so we can we do?



People in Poland have benefited from the fact that they are now capable of doing the jobs that once were only done by expensive labor in the West.
Chillax, you mentioned several 50+ year old individuals, and talked about COBOL in the previous sentence. It looked you were linking old skills with old age. By the look of the rest you specified, it just seems to be a misunderstanding. Maybe I misinterpreted the COBOL thing, let's also admit that your comment wasn't very clear either, since it mixes "deprecated technologies" and then "age, skills, value in production" and also possible implication of "overall contribution to a business linked solely to what is produced". A bit confusing!

As for point two about adding value in work, there's also the possibility that the managers are failing or deceiving the business owners into maintaining appearances, letting looks like the boat is relatively floating. That game can work during a number of years, and anyway, once setup, some businesses have also a life of their own. For example, imagine a company regularly getting paid for maintenance, there's the possibility to make it looks "ok", for a few years until the cash cease to come in, or the business evolve to a point that the maintenance activity will no longer bring sufficient income. In that scenario, all other aspects could be terribly managed, yet the result would only be perceivable years after. Somehow, isn't it what occurred with companies like Kodak, to a certain extend, which failed to predict the market change and "slept on their past successes and income sources"? Maybe the added value of someone predicting the market changes or trying to "rock the boat" were ignored or even tuned down or punished internally. So the value is a notion very relative but also evolving in time. I am convinced that certain skills are vital for any business, a must have, especially in today's globalised world. Anyway, as you pointed out, I am not manager so I don't care so much about someone else's business, yet there are numerous risks taken which could endanger numerous industries, and far down the chain, my own career.

Let's ignore the Polish comment, as I predicted you are talking about something else, it's a complex set of topic, and we are mixing a few things. Let's say that I disagree with you and that your comment is very focused on one particular aspect of the changes introduced with their economy. That's fine. Entirely different debate, and no time to speak about that.
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