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Old 08.04.2018, 12:26
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

I think what gives me a certain advantage in this negotiation is that I have no particular interest in moving to Switzerland, I would have happily moved just for the job, since I was truly excited about the role, if they offered me a compensation worth moving.

If this falls through, Iíll look for something else in London. Thankfully it is pretty easy to find opportunities in the creative industry in London.

To answer a previous question, I donít want to provide too many details about my employer as I am concerned this could cause me trouble (although I suspect if anyone that knows me in real life read this thread, they would already know itís me). I can say that the company I work for is a huge company (40k+ employees around the world) in the education industry. The role is in the creative team, which is part of the wider marketing department.

Many colleagues who have moved between offices warned me that this is a trick they try often (adjusting your current salary to the cost of living in the new country and offering you that, even though it is a ridiculous offer compared to the local standars).

It really might be time to look elsewhere and move on from this company..
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Old 08.04.2018, 22:41
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I suspect that salaries will fall due to the strengthening of the CHF, otherwise known as deflation. Salaries & day rates in the media are 30-50% lower than in 2000, it's the same in IT. Welcome to the global economy & free movement of labour throughout the EU & Switzerland, it's a race to the bottom salaries wise.

In 2000 salaries were higher in London than ZH using the then FX rate of 2.6, same v USD @ 1.8.
The big question is: what was the purchasing power back them compared to today? I don't think it's down 30-50%, on the contrary, I suspect it is roughly the same because a strong CHF also means imports (fuel, cars, electronics, etc.) are cheaper.
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  #43  
Old 08.04.2018, 22:47
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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i think what gives me a certain advantage in this negotiation is that i have no particular interest in moving to switzerland, i would have happily moved just for the job, since i was truly excited about the role, if they offered me a compensation worth moving.

If this falls through, i’ll look for something else in london. Thankfully it is pretty easy to find opportunities in the creative industry in london.

To answer a previous question, i don’t want to provide too many details about my employer as i am concerned this could cause me trouble (although i suspect if anyone that knows me in real life read this thread, they would already know it’s me). I can say that the company i work for is a huge company (40k+ employees around the world) in the education industry. The role is in the creative team, which is part of the wider marketing department.

Many colleagues who have moved between offices warned me that this is a trick they try often (adjusting your current salary to the cost of living in the new country and offering you that, even though it is a ridiculous offer compared to the local standars).

It really might be time to look elsewhere and move on from this company..
Pearson. ;-)
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  #44  
Old 09.04.2018, 08:17
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I suspect that salaries will fall due to the strengthening of the CHF, otherwise known as deflation. Salaries & day rates in the media are 30-50% lower than in 2000, it's the same in IT. Welcome to the global economy & free movement of labour throughout the EU & Switzerland, it's a race to the bottom salaries wise.

In 2000 salaries were higher in London than ZH using the then FX rate of 2.6, same v USD @ 1.8.
Indeed the situation in Switzerlandis under a lot of pressure fron various external and internal factors.

The CHF is now on a weakening trend various EUR/USD/GBP and since the cap / floor was abandoned by the SNB back in Jan-15 where it went below parity vs EUR (0.85 at one very brief low volume point!) it is now ironically settling around the 1.18 mark (the SNB is involved to a certain extent). The point is that the weakening CHF will make things worse now as the advantage it offered when it was on a strengthening trend is now slowly disappearing and cuts are still being made!

Add to this the downward pressure on wages from corporates who are keen to show investors that they are doing something about high cost bases in a rising interest rate environment and you have a sufficient grounds to conclude things would only get worse for expats in CH on “the get rich quick and go back home” dream (the go back home part never materialises by the way mainly because the expats never get rich as the goal posts keep getting moved or they simply just settle here).

Downward pressure on wages erodes purchasing power and would, ceteris paribus, lead to downward pressure on asset prices. It’s not a big leap to assume the worst over the next 10 years here!

Anyway I digress...
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  #45  
Old 09.04.2018, 08:21
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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The big question is: what was the purchasing power back them compared to today? I don't think it's down 30-50%, on the contrary, I suspect it is roughly the same because a strong CHF also means imports (fuel, cars, electronics, etc.) are cheaper.
Prices are broadly unchanged since 2000, probably less than 10% increases. Prices have not been lowered due to exchange rates as goods are priced at what the market will bear.
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  #46  
Old 09.04.2018, 08:36
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Prices are broadly unchanged since 2000, probably less than 10% increases. Prices have not been lowered due to exchange rates as goods are priced at what the market will bear.
Supply and demand is an academic myth!

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  #47  
Old 09.04.2018, 09:07
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Supply and demand is an academic myth!

Demand is usually availability of credit at least for more expensive items, it's nothing to do with a desire to own or most people would drive Ferraris.
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Old 09.04.2018, 09:14
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Prices are broadly unchanged since 2000, probably less than 10% increases. Prices have not been lowered due to exchange rates as goods are priced at what the market will bear.
the main driver for cost increase is probably health insurance. apart from that I agree - at least I don't notice any price difference.
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  #49  
Old 09.04.2018, 09:20
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Demand is usually availability of credit at least for more expensive items, it's nothing to do with a desire to own or most people would drive Ferraris.
Itís probably both but I see your point...

Just because I can get credit to buy a Ferrari doesnít mean I would necessarily buy one.
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Old 09.04.2018, 10:26
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Itís probably both but I see your point...

Just because I can get credit to buy a Ferrari doesnít mean I would necessarily buy one.
Sure, however, if cleaners & supermarket cashiers could get a loan for a Ferrari, sales would increase. The fact that the loans would not get paid back is irrelevant.
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  #51  
Old 09.04.2018, 10:36
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Sure, however, if cleaners & supermarket cashiers could get a loan for a Ferrari, sales would increase. The fact that the loans would not get paid back is irrelevant.
This is equivalent to what is referred to as ďHelicopter MoneyĒ (a term widely attributed to Super Mario or thr Bernanke) i.e the central bank would just be dropping cash out of a helicopter and people would be able to buy whatever they want!

Naturally, the price of Ferrariís would rise!
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Old 09.04.2018, 11:15
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Prices are broadly unchanged since 2000, probably less than 10% increases. Prices have not been lowered due to exchange rates as goods are priced at what the market will bear.
Depends what you're looking at. Health and housing (40% of the CPI) have both increased significantly and food prices (another 10%) are kept high by protective measures. Thus everything else must have decreased (although certainly not by as much as it should have).

For a simple example look at new car prices over the last 5 years. Even with clothing I have noticed the importers reducing the exchange rate from 2.0 (CHF:EUR) on the price tag to perhaps 1.50 now.
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Old 09.04.2018, 12:37
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Depends what you're looking at. Health and housing (40% of the CPI) have both increased significantly and food prices (another 10%) are kept high by protective measures. Thus everything else must have decreased (although certainly not by as much as it should have).

For a simple example look at new car prices over the last 5 years. Even with clothing I have noticed the importers reducing the exchange rate from 2.0 (CHF:EUR) on the price tag to perhaps 1.50 now.
Anyone who is living in the same apartment won't have received much rent increase possibly 5% in 2005 but nothing since then. They could apply for a reduction as the reference interest rate would have been 3.75% back then.

Health insurance has risen more.

White goods & PC's / TV's are cheaper but that's not due to exchange rates.

Cars have fallen, a 50k list price when Grey imports are 28k, even for Swiss that won't fly so main dealers charge 38.5K for a genuine Swiss import
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This is equivalent to what is referred to as “Helicopter Money” (a term widely attributed to Super Mario or thr Bernanke) i.e the central bank would just be dropping cash out of a helicopter and people would be able to buy whatever they want!

Naturally, the price of Ferrari’s would rise!
Remind me, how much did SNB spend with the 1.20 floor? Helicopter money
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  #54  
Old 09.04.2018, 14:24
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I wonder what is going on with companies paying so little for new employees, Is this the new era of slavery in Switzerland.?
I was chatting to my doctor a couple of weeks ago and somehow the conversation got round to "burn out". He mentioned that he had seen a significant increase in expats coming to see him, particularly from insurance, banking and IT, complaining of stress, often related to increased workload or fear of redundancy.

This fits in with something often heard here, that there's quite a downsizing trend in these expat-filled sectors. This (I suppose) explains downwrd pressure on salaries, both for new starters and existing employees.
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Old 09.04.2018, 17:14
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I was chatting to my doctor a couple of weeks ago and somehow the conversation got round to "burn out". He mentioned that he had seen a significant increase in expats coming to see him, particularly from insurance, banking and IT, complaining of stress, often related to increased workload or fear of redundancy.

This fits in with something often heard here, that there's quite a downsizing trend in these expat-filled sectors. This (I suppose) explains downwrd pressure on salaries, both for new starters and existing employees.
The increased workload is clearly a symptom of hidden salary deflation / cuts!

Example:

Worker earns 100k @ 100% capacity then worker is asked to do 20% more for the same salary, hence the worker is clearly earning less than 100k, effectively an indirect salary cut!

This is a concept similar to shrinkflation where product manufacturers reduce the net weight of products (i.e shrink the output) and keep the prices the same leading to inflation.
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Old 09.04.2018, 17:20
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I was chatting to my doctor a couple of weeks ago and somehow the conversation got round to "burn out". He mentioned that he had seen a significant increase in expats coming to see him, particularly from insurance, banking and IT, complaining of stress, often related to increased workload or fear of redundancy.

This fits in with something often heard here, that there's quite a downsizing trend in these expat-filled sectors. This (I suppose) explains downwrd pressure on salaries, both for new starters and existing employees.


It is mainly the middle to lower end jobs that get downsized, outsourced, offshored... or "optimized" in a way that less people do the same job in less time, which means more stress for them. The upper- and middle-managment hope to keep their bonus level with these kind of cost cutting measures. I remember some years ago, the head of HR of a bank proposed to reduce the employer's contribution to the canteen and use the so saved money to bolster the bonuses.
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Old 15.04.2018, 22:36
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

Hi all, another update!

After I (nicely) turned down their initial offer of CHF 65k and stated that I was expecting a salary around CHF 90k, they got back to me and offered CHF 75k. I am planning to get back to them tomorrow and try and see if I can push it to 80k, which would be the minimum salary Iíd be willing to take. If they agree, then we have a deal.

So it sounds like there is hope after all

Thank you all for your support and kind comments.
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Old 15.04.2018, 23:27
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Hi all, another update!

After I (nicely) turned down their initial offer of CHF 65k and stated that I was expecting a salary around CHF 90k, they got back to me and offered CHF 75k. I am planning to get back to them tomorrow and try and see if I can push it to 80k, which would be the minimum salary Iíd be willing to take. If they agree, then we have a deal.

So it sounds like there is hope after all

Thank you all for your support and kind comments.
Did you bring up the health insurance point? Thatíd be worth circa 300 CHF in after tax costs per month depending on your age etc.
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Old 15.04.2018, 23:30
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Did you bring up the health insurance point? Thatíd be worth circa 300 CHF in after tax costs per month depending on your age etc.
And overtime, is it paid or in lieu?
Also the moving costs should be paid by them.
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Old 15.04.2018, 23:31
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Did you bring up the health insurance point? Thatíd be worth circa 300 CHF in after tax costs per month depending on your age etc.
Not yet, I might do that if they arenít willing to stretch to 80k though (together with a bigger relocation allowance and the agreement to review my salary in 6 months if I hit all my targets).
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