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  #61  
Old 15.04.2018, 23:32
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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And overtime, is it paid or in lieu?
Also the moving costs should be paid by them.
Overtime in lieu. They offered a CHF 3k for relocation which I will try to negotiate up if they donít budge on salary.
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  #62  
Old 16.04.2018, 06:34
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

What...? Nobody advised you to take up the initial offer, be happy with and don't ask anything else?
Hmmmmm........This is not the EF I know.
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  #63  
Old 16.04.2018, 06:52
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I can only endorse what others have said. 65K is ridiculous for this role. I wouldn't even regard 80K as acceptable, given your experience and skills. Sure, you can live on 80K as a single person, and you won't starve. But it won't be easy to save much or do any regular travelling, for instance. As someone said, it sounds like they may have just taken your £45K London salary and run it through XE.com.

Cost of living here is substantially higher. I haven't tried doing any proper calculations but my gut instinct says that cost of living is around 50% higher. So just to match your spending power, I'd reckon on about 90K CHFs. And of course, you should expect some premium for making such a dramatic change to your life. So 100K does sound about right.

Mind you, a shame if you were to miss out on a spell in Switzerland. It doesn't suit everyone but for me, life here is hugely more pleasant than in London. But that's another discussion.
Wow, made me laugh considering the condescending ahem well intended , kind advice you give to other people. If OP was offered that low a salary he's not in the big game anyway to begin with. It's good that he tried to negotiate his salary upwards, as anyone who is not desperate to move should do, but he has to keep in mind that if his skills are not rare or not in the latest technology, the employer will be more willing to simply hire someone else than to transfer him. It would pay off in the long run. We don't know the company, nor the OP's credentials. Maybe he got it as good as he can, his current location being London is neither here, nor there from some POVs. (the employer pretends they adjusted their offer to the costs of living here anyway)



But congrats, OP. You did well.
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  #64  
Old 16.04.2018, 07:21
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Hi all, another update!

After I (nicely) turned down their initial offer of CHF 65k and stated that I was expecting a salary around CHF 90k, they got back to me and offered CHF 75k. I am planning to get back to them tomorrow and try and see if I can push it to 80k, which would be the minimum salary I’d be willing to take. If they agree, then we have a deal.

So it sounds like there is hope after all

Thank you all for your support and kind comments.
The fact they have upped their offer shows they know they need you. Stick to 85-90k unless you get some serious benefits. If I were you I would also be pissed knowing that my company was intentionally trying to screw me as it shows they have little respect for you or your skills.




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Wow, made me laugh considering the condescending ahem well intended , kind advice you give to other people. If OP was offered that low a salary he's not in the big game anyway to begin with. It's good that he tried to negotiate his salary upwards, as anyone who is not desperate to move should do, but he has to keep in mind that if his skills are not rare or not in the latest technology, the employer will be more willing to simply hire someone else than to transfer him. It would pay off in the long run. We don't know the company, nor the OP's credentials. Maybe he got it as good as he can, his current location being London is neither here, nor there from some POVs. (the employer pretends they adjusted their offer to the costs of living here anyway)



But congrats, OP. You did well.
The OP states multiple times that he is a niche specialist in high demand. Can't you read threads fully before replying? That was a rhetorical question; we know you can't.
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  #65  
Old 16.04.2018, 07:23
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Overtime in lieu. They offered a CHF 3k for relocation which I will try to negotiate up if they donít budge on salary.
That's taxable.

I got 10k relocation in Jan 2017 from Malta to Zurich: I'm not management or anything important.
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  #66  
Old 16.04.2018, 07:50
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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That's taxable.

I got 10k relocation in Jan 2017 from Malta to Zurich: I'm not management or anything important.
What, you back in the land of the pointy bits?
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  #67  
Old 16.04.2018, 10:22
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

3k for the move is very low - 8 years ago, as relocation package in my company (big international company, FMCG), I got:
  • exploration trip (2-3 days in Switzerland prior to move for me and my wife)
  • air tickets to Switzerland paid for me and my wife
  • 2 transports (air for essential stuff - it was actually enough for all my stuff from 34m2 flat + full truck, but I didn't use it)
  • storage of boxes for 1 month
  • company apartment for 2 months (close to work, more than 100m2 with a lake view, now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • car rental for 2 months (now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • 3k budget for local language classes + the same for my wife
  • few k for career advisory for my wife
  • 1-month salary extra
I know this might be the top-class relocation package, but the 3k your company offers, will barely pay for a van transportation from London to Zurich... I listed all, because this may give you some ideas.
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Old 16.04.2018, 10:28
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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3k for the move is very low - 8 years ago, as relocation package in my company (big international company, FMCG), I got:
  • exploration trip (2-3 days in Switzerland prior to move for me and my wife)
  • air tickets to Switzerland paid for me and my wife
  • 2 transports (air for essential stuff - it was actually enough for all my stuff from 34m2 flat + full truck, but I didn't use it)
  • storage of boxes for 1 month
  • company apartment for 2 months (close to work, more than 100m2 with a lake view, now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • car rental for 2 months (now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • 3k budget for local language classes + the same for my wife
  • few k for career advisory for my wife
  • 1-month salary extra
I know this might be the top-class relocation package, but the 3k your company offers, will barely pay for a van transportation from London to Zurich... I listed all, because this may give you some ideas.
Was your salary range the same as OPīs ? Iīd rather doubt that.
However, all good points to consider as OP will have similar cost for some items.
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  #69  
Old 16.04.2018, 10:38
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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The fact they have upped their offer shows they know they need you. Stick to 85-90k unless you get some serious benefits. If I were you I would also be pissed knowing that my company was intentionally trying to screw me as it shows they have little respect for you or your skills.



The OP states multiple times that he is a niche specialist in high demand. Can't you read threads fully before replying? That was a rhetorical question; we know you can't.
I agree it seems being screwed up, especially for the location and alleged experience.

One thing is that the OP is saying, ok in 6 months they will review the salary.
HAHA. That show the weakness in negotiating, it never works that way.
There are tons of excuses which can occur so that it will not happens (and sometimes legitimate ones like the "deal" between manager and employee will disappear with new management).

As for raising salary once in position, it will rarely be significant enough to cover the difference.

I see only 2 options:
1) Not taking a low offer.
2) Taking a low offer for the XP and moving elsewhere in 12-24 months time.

With the little info I have, I think 1) is the best, especially that OP as a job elsewhere.
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Old 16.04.2018, 10:41
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Was your salary range the same as OPīs ? Iīd rather doubt that.
However, all good points to consider as OP will have similar cost for some items.
Let's not forget all possible costs which can occur if the company do not keep the employee during the probation period. Something which occurs to some people in this forum.

3000chf is peanuts. It's, in my opinion, a poor negotiation offer, a one off pathetic trick to lure the OP, withouth offering decent salary.

In my experience that demonstrate either bad will/lack of care or poor financial results of the company (which will impact on the OP one way or another, and also financially).

To it's a significant red flag to look elsewhere.
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  #71  
Old 16.04.2018, 10:55
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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I agree it seems being screwed up, especially for the location and alleged experience.

One thing is that the OP is saying, ok in 6 months they will review the salary.
HAHA. That show the weakness in negotiating, it never works that way.
There are tons of excuses which can occur so that it will not happens (and sometimes legitimate ones like the "deal" between manager and employee will disappear with new management).

As for raising salary once in position, it will rarely be significant enough to cover the difference.

I see only 2 options:
1) Not taking a low offer.
2) Taking a low offer for the XP and moving elsewhere in 12-24 months time.

With the little info I have, I think 1) is the best, especially that OP as a job elsewhere.
Would you say that asking for them to pay for my health insurance is a better option?

Net monthly income for CHF 75k is 5124, net income for CHF 80k is 5435. So the difference is CHF 311. If they agree to pay for my health insurance that should close the gap, as it is worth CHF 250/300 (after tax) from what I understand.

Am I wrong?
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  #72  
Old 16.04.2018, 10:56
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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a school teacher CHF 105k/year
Really?
Finally a country where teachers are properly valued then.
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  #73  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:02
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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  • exploration trip (2-3 days in Switzerland prior to move for me and my wife)
  • air tickets to Switzerland paid for me and my wife
  • 2 transports (air for essential stuff - it was actually enough for all my stuff from 34m2 flat + full truck, but I didn't use it)
  • storage of boxes for 1 month
  • company apartment for 2 months (close to work, more than 100m2 with a lake view, now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • car rental for 2 months (now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • 3k budget for local language classes + the same for my wife
  • few k for career advisory for my wife
  • 1-month salary extra
Yeah you do realize that's not a standard offer for someone in the 80k salary range outside high-margin businesses?

Not everyone works in pharma, IT, banking, consulting or FMCG for that matter.

Can't constantly compare apples with oranges, teachers with C-level, media with e.g. finance - it doesn't work that way.

That being said, 65k is too low, 45k GBP go a fair bit further (even if not massively so), even in London, than 65k in Zurich would. Agree with 80-90k as a ballpark, 3k relocation is low, but I'm actually surprised you got offered any at all. Coming from a high-margin MNC, I can promise you that these days, you'd be lucky to get any acceptable relo package here for most transfers, except if you're C/C-1/C-2 level of course.

Companies paying for health insurance here is extremely rare and usually reserved at best to the big boys, so best to just ask for a higher salary.

Last comment: do not take the job on the hope that in x months you'll have a conversation and up your salary. I would NEVER rely on that with any company anywhere. Take a job only if it is at the minimum salary you're willing to work for - everything that may or may not happen in the future is of course good, but you should never expect it. Not even if it says in your contract that there "will be a conversation in x months". A conversation is not a guaranteed salary increase.
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Old 16.04.2018, 11:14
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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What, you back in the land of the pointy bits?
My job in Malta emigrated but I didn't want to follow, and no opportunity to get the same salary
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  #75  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:15
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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3k for the move is very low - 8 years ago, as relocation package in my company (big international company, FMCG), I got:
  • exploration trip (2-3 days in Switzerland prior to move for me and my wife)
  • air tickets to Switzerland paid for me and my wife
  • 2 transports (air for essential stuff - it was actually enough for all my stuff from 34m2 flat + full truck, but I didn't use it)
  • storage of boxes for 1 month
  • company apartment for 2 months (close to work, more than 100m2 with a lake view, now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • car rental for 2 months (now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • 3k budget for local language classes + the same for my wife
  • few k for career advisory for my wife
  • 1-month salary extra
I know this might be the top-class relocation package, but the 3k your company offers, will barely pay for a van transportation from London to Zurich... I listed all, because this may give you some ideas.
Completely non-standard package
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  #76  
Old 16.04.2018, 11:26
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Completely non-standard package
Yeah, that is certainly on the high-end of relocation packages...
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Old 16.04.2018, 11:32
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

Just seen this and not read everything so apologies if I'm repeating what others have said.

For a similar role in a company whose board i sit on, was paid CHF 120,000 plus some benefits such as basic health care premiums and 1 paid trip in Economy back to her home a year.

There was also a relocation package paying for 1 20' container. HR were able to help find suitable accommodation and in her case Italian classes paid for by the company.

Seems like you won't have so much to transport but that should be covered as well as the above. You can't be expected to come to Zurich and just find an apartment and start working. You'd need a serviced apartment for three months to have time to travel around and find the right place for travel to work as well as personal comfort.

You also need to look at your tax position. Will you be better off or worse off paying Swiss taxes? The personal allowance is less but you can deduct more things than in the UK for example.

Travel back to London is very easy from Zurich with flights into City often at CHF 80 each way, so weekend trips are very feasible.

As a rough rule of thumb, I'd take your UK salary and multiply it by the old rate of exchange of CHF 2.50 to the £. This comes to CHF112,000 so not so far off the ball park most are talking about.
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Old 16.04.2018, 11:37
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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3k for the move is very low - 8 years ago, as relocation package in my company (big international company, FMCG), I got:
  • exploration trip (2-3 days in Switzerland prior to move for me and my wife)
  • air tickets to Switzerland paid for me and my wife
  • 2 transports (air for essential stuff - it was actually enough for all my stuff from 34m2 flat + full truck, but I didn't use it)
  • storage of boxes for 1 month
  • company apartment for 2 months (close to work, more than 100m2 with a lake view, now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • car rental for 2 months (now the policy changed and it is 1 month)
  • 3k budget for local language classes + the same for my wife
  • few k for career advisory for my wife
  • 1-month salary extra
I know this might be the top-class relocation package, but the 3k your company offers, will barely pay for a van transportation from London to Zurich... I listed all, because this may give you some ideas.
Based on your other posts and this itís pretty easy to work out who your employer is and they are known for being very generous in such things, they have to be in order to attract people to work for them.

I donít think the OPís employers are quite in the same league.
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Old 16.04.2018, 12:13
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Would you say that asking for them to pay for my health insurance is a better option?

Net monthly income for CHF 75k is 5124, net income for CHF 80k is 5435. So the difference is CHF 311. If they agree to pay for my health insurance that should close the gap, as it is worth CHF 250/300 (after tax) from what I understand.

Am I wrong?
I would say, again based on my experience and limited knowledge of your offer/experience, that I would even not consider a company which appears to have lowballed you from the start, and then continued with a poor relocation package during negotiations.

To me it's either lowballing and/or they have limited finance. Which is something that ultimately, to me, is going to impact you one way or another. Might be frustration, might be redundancy, etc...

Again, you might have different standards, I do not know all the cards.
What I know very well is cost of living, relocation, salaries, management manipulations and job market reality in various regions in UK and various Swiss cantons.

To conclude, again, I insist with the limited information, I think there's pathetic "throw in" (what is cost of health insurance, 3000CHF year? 3K for relocation) are nothing compare to have a decent starting salary of 80K-100k (or more depending on experience/industry, blablabla). Therefore, I would make it clear about what I expect and move on. That is especially confortable with your UK position.

Of course, you could also take it as a Swiss jump and bounce in 12-24 months to greener pastures, it's not my cup of tea to accept below the market offers, I believe I worth more on the market, and the market is real.

What do you believe in?
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Old 16.04.2018, 15:11
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Re: Salary for international internal transfer - how to avoid being lowballed?

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Hi all, another update!

After I (nicely) turned down their initial offer of CHF 65k and stated that I was expecting a salary around CHF 90k, they got back to me and offered CHF 75k. I am planning to get back to them tomorrow and try and see if I can push it to 80k, which would be the minimum salary Iíd be willing to take. If they agree, then we have a deal.

So it sounds like there is hope after all

Thank you all for your support and kind comments.
Regardless of the deal, what you did is exactly what everybody must learn to do before getting into a salary negotiation.

Good luck in the next steps!
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