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Old 17.05.2018, 20:20
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Mutual consent

So it seems my company and I are splitting ways.
I've agreed with my direct superior that he lets me go with mutual consent, which is more favorable than me quitting (is it?), at least for the RAV story, should I be needing the RAV in 3.5 months.

Only to look around on the internet and not find any templates or references of mutual consent resignation in Switzerland. Does this concept actually exist here? Who has to give notice of termination and in what way? Can I terminate my contract asking for mutual consent "as discussed with my management"? Or do I have to wait for them to finally let me go?
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Old 17.05.2018, 20:28
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Re: Mutual consent

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Only to look around on the internet and not find any templates or references of mutual consent resignation in Switzerland. Does this concept actually exist here?
No. One party or the other must give notice of termination. The fact that you've already accepted that you'll be leaving makes no legal difference at all. Obviously you need the employer to give you notice to avoid RAV penalties.

What countries do you know of where there is a third way? I'm not even sure what the point would be - it's not as if any future employer could ever did it the terms on which you parted.
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Old 17.05.2018, 20:56
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Re: Mutual consent

Our company - large MNC - has a policy for "mutual termination agreement".
Granted, in reality, that's just code for "you were fired but we're pretending you're leaving voluntarily". And the latter doesn't apply to just us - if I read that in a reference letter, I'm absolutely sure that the person was in fact terminated.

Legally, it makes no real difference. For RAV in particular, it doesn't either. To avoid penalties, your employer needs to terminate you. If you still have a decent relationship with them, you may want to ask to issue the reference letter separately with a statement that you left voluntarily, in case you think the opposite might hinder your job search. Granted, it's a grey zone and they may not agree to doing that.
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Old 17.05.2018, 22:27
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Re: Mutual consent

Not so sure but if you have been working for several years the RAV should be ok if you tell them 'I was unhappy at that job so I had to leave'. Check the sources but if I remember correctly they encourage people to quit and find a suitable job instead of burning out at a job they are unhappy with.
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Old 17.05.2018, 22:33
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Re: Mutual consent

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Our company - large MNC - has a policy for "mutual termination agreement".
Granted, in reality, that's just code for "you were fired but we're pretending you're leaving voluntarily". And the latter doesn't apply to just us - if I read that in a reference letter, I'm absolutely sure that the person was in fact terminated.

Legally, it makes no real difference. For RAV in particular, it doesn't either. To avoid penalties, your employer needs to terminate you. If you still have a decent relationship with them, you may want to ask to issue the reference letter separately with a statement that you left voluntarily, in case you think the opposite might hinder your job search. Granted, it's a grey zone and they may not agree to doing that.
I just read through whatever I could find online and if I resign, the default penalty is 3 months (60 working days), which is of course quite a sum to think about... that is, if I don't find the new gig until then.

So basically I need to ask them a favor and have them terminate me stating that I've been made redundant by a reorg...
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Old 17.05.2018, 22:34
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Re: Mutual consent

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Not so sure but if you have been working for several years the RAV should be ok if you tell them 'I was unhappy at that job so I had to leave'. Check the sources but if I remember correctly they encourage people to quit and find a suitable job instead of burning out at a job they are unhappy with.
on the contrary, I have read that if you quit without securing your next role it's the maximum penalty per default.
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Old 17.05.2018, 22:57
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Re: Mutual consent

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on the contrary, I have read that if you quit without securing your next role it's the maximum penalty per default.
perhaps one point comes from the employment office which is there to help you lead a successful professional life and the other point comes from unemployment insurance rules
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Old 17.05.2018, 23:09
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Re: Mutual consent

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So it seems my company and I are splitting ways.
I've agreed with my direct superior that he lets me go with mutual consent, which is more favorable than me quitting (is it?), at least for the RAV story, should I be needing the RAV in 3.5 months.

Only to look around on the internet and not find any templates or references of mutual consent resignation in Switzerland. Does this concept actually exist here? Who has to give notice of termination and in what way? Can I terminate my contract asking for mutual consent "as discussed with my management"? Or do I have to wait for them to finally let me go?
Mutual consent is used when they let a CEO go, give him a lot of money to get the hell out.

Your posts are not clear, did you mention you want to go or did the employer mention it might be better you moved on?

We had the "do me a favor and kick me out" in an other thread. Not working with RAV and good chance RAV might find out. Unemployment money is a security-net thing. Not a "how do I get the most out of it" one.

So - if you want to move on - the consideration should be
  • how badly do I need to get out of here?
  • is my peace of mind/freedom worth the RAV penalty (if RAV-support needed at all in the end)
  • can I just keep going here until I found a new job
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Old 17.05.2018, 23:31
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Re: Mutual consent

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Your posts are not clear, did you mention you want to go or did the employer mention it might be better you moved on?
We are in a reorg. I've pitched 3 positions I'd like to take, where I'd be qualified and would match my career interests... and these have all been either explicitly declined or I feel I'm option B or C in the last one.

The ones that were in fact offered to me I'm not really ready to accept as these are roles I've been doing years ago and thus this would break my career path a little. I think at this point the options left for me is to either resign myself or to accept a step back and look for a job in the background, where I would eventually resign again, just later, but having a dent in my career flow. This is also clear to my current direct superior and he agreed to let me go on mutual terms "if that is what you want". So I guess the answer is yes to both of your questions above? Kind of the definition of mutual consent, isn't it?
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Old 17.05.2018, 23:42
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Re: Mutual consent

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The ones that were in fact offered to me I'm not really ready to accept as these are roles I've been doing years ago and thus this would break my career path a little.
If you look for an advise, I'm not sure what could be used more against you (your career) a temporary lower position until you find a better job or a RAV hole in your history
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Old 17.05.2018, 23:48
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Re: Mutual consent

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If you look for an advise, I'm not sure what could be used more against you (your career) a temporary lower position until you find a better job or a RAV hole in your history
which do you think is less bad?

and by not quitting, how about:
- lost contracting opportunities as contracts will never wait for a regular 3-mths notice period to end
- not getting any further education or trainings
- not being able to focus on self-development full time
- constant dissatisfaction at work
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Old 18.05.2018, 00:03
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Re: Mutual consent

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which do you think is less bad?

and by not quitting, how about:
- lost contracting opportunities as contracts will never wait for a regular 3-mths notice period to end
- not getting any further education or trainings
- not being able to focus on self-development full time
- constant dissatisfaction at work
This depends largely on your profession and years of experience. Most of contracting engineers choose to have a few months break between contracts nowadays.

and by quitting, how about:
- feeling down by having no offer despite all your efforts
- spending loads of time on job search, application preparation, preparation for interviews, etc. instead of self-development
- staying at home all the time (unless you are the type who loves working from home, away from the office and people)
- you will never know whether in a short time there was an internal opportunity to get back to 'your level'
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Old 18.05.2018, 00:10
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Re: Mutual consent

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We are in a reorg. I've pitched 3 positions I'd like to take, where I'd be qualified and would match my career interests... and these have all been either explicitly declined or I feel I'm option B or C in the last one.

The ones that were in fact offered to me I'm not really ready to accept as these are roles I've been doing years ago and thus this would break my career path a little. I think at this point the options left for me is to either resign myself or to accept a step back and look for a job in the background, where I would eventually resign again, just later, but having a dent in my career flow. This is also clear to my current direct superior and he agreed to let me go on mutual terms "if that is what you want". So I guess the answer is yes to both of your questions above? Kind of the definition of mutual consent, isn't it?
Yes, I'd say it is

The thoughts of Leszek are worth pondering too.

If you take a lower position and - seriously - look for a job, it could be interpreted as "the guy pursues his career but is able to adapt to circumstances".

If you have a RAV gap it could be interpreted as "the guy puts career first and is someone who believes it's a right to have one"

Oh gee, I can't remember ever having listed possibilities to a general question with my opinion shining through that crassly.

As they can't change your job/position from one day to an other (but have to keep up with the notice perriod) this lower position would start in 3 months, right?
The safest way to play this would be:
  • you agree to take the lower position and get 3 monthes to look for a job. (secretly)
  • you probably have to sign the new contract now but there should be a probation time in it (if not ask for one).
  • If you find a job you can do one week in the new one - then quit

One thing you definitely, absolutely MUST do now, tomorrow morning 8 a.m. is ask for a Zwischenzeugnis for the position you had so far!!!
That's perfectly legal, normal, understandable, so don't be shy about it.
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Old 18.05.2018, 00:20
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Re: Mutual consent

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The thoughts of Leszek are worth pondering too.
They are, and I'm immensely grateful for these thoughts for all of you.

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The safest way to play this would be:
  • you agree to take the lower position and get 3 monthes to look for a job. (secretly)
  • you probably have to sign the new contract now but there should be a probation time in it (if not ask for one).
  • If you find a job you can do one week in the new one - then quit
I'm already looking for a step-up job for the last 3-4 months, but no luck so far. I've had to pass a couple of *really* lucrative contracting offers as my notice period kills these deals. However, this approach is for me is a little too sneaky and quite frankly, it would be an obvious coward route to take. I'd rather be direct about it. #inyourface (and bear the consequences)

But I honestly had enough of the current organisation in the past years and I can't really stand even thinking this situation through. If they don't appreciate me enough to want to keep me, so be it. I have no problem to leave, it's their loss.

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One thing you definitely, absolutely MUST do now, tomorrow morning 8 a.m. is ask for a Zwischenzeugnis for the position you had so far!!!
That's perfectly legal, normal, understandable, so don't be shy about it.
Yes, I know, and thanks for the reminder, I'll get one before things turn sour.
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Old 18.05.2018, 00:39
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Re: Mutual consent

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......
I'm already looking for a step-up job for the last 3-4 months, but no luck so far. I've had to pass a couple of *really* lucrative contracting offers as my notice period kills these deals. However, this approach is for me is a little too sneaky and quite frankly, it would be an obvious coward route to take. I'd rather be direct about it. #inyourface (and bear the consequences)

But I honestly had enough of the current organisation in the past years and I can't really stand even thinking this situation through. If they don't appreciate me enough to want to keep me, so be it. I have no problem to leave, it's their loss......
Asking your employer to pretend they fired you for the RAV sake is not sneaky? It is lying while my version is taking advantage of existing, legal contracts.

Before you turned down those lucrative offers, did you talk to your employer? Under the circumstances, it could well be they let you go sooner if you tell them you have a new job, you know.
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Old 18.05.2018, 00:51
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Re: Mutual consent

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Asking your employer to pretend they fired you for the RAV sake is not sneaky? It is lying while my version is taking advantage of existing, legal contracts.
well, hence the opening post... I got no intentions to trick the system and I hope I will not need the safety net.

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Before you turned down those lucrative offers, did you talk to your employer?
No, I didn't as they stopped talking to me after I told them I got a 3 months' notice. In our current state with the company, letting me go early will probably not be an option (I wish it was!).

And how would you ask this from the current employer? "hey boss, I'm going to this interview next week, can you please let me go 2 months early if they do want to employ me in the end? But if not, forgot I ever said anything"?
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Old 18.05.2018, 01:02
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Re: Mutual consent

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I'm already looking for a step-up job for the last 3-4 months, but no luck so far. I've had to pass a couple of *really* lucrative contracting offers as my notice period kills these deals. However, this approach is for me is a little too sneaky and quite frankly, it would be an obvious coward route to take. I'd rather be direct about it. #inyourface (and bear the consequences)

But I honestly had enough of the current organisation in the past years and I can't really stand even thinking this situation through. If they don't appreciate me enough to want to keep me, so be it. I have no problem to leave, it's their loss.
You never know. Were the *lucrative offers* a real offers or just someone asked you 'are you interested to be considered'? Being unemployed I have applied to a few lucrative contracting offers, via recruiters/recruiting agencies, where I have heard all the details and all was fine but the phone never rang in the end. The agencies do overbooking on contractors.

For the other part, I kind of second your opinion. I came to Switzerland to work for a startup and when it become bigger management problems became more and more serious. The company started *experimenting* with different approaches. It was very tiring for all the people, so to say. One day my manger called me up and dismissed me 'because I look unhappy here'. First thought was 'who are you to tell me to close the door from the other side, it's you who's to blame for the situation' but the second one was 'fine, so be it, if you are so stupid, deal with it, it's not my problem anymore'.
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Old 18.05.2018, 01:12
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Re: Mutual consent

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You never know. Were the *lucrative offers* a real offers or just someone asked you 'are you interested to be considered'? Being unemployed I have applied to a few lucrative contracting offers, via recruiters/recruiting agencies, where I have heard all the details and all was fine but the phone never rang in the end.
Well, the last recruiter said my profile is an "absolute slam dunk for the job", but he really can't wait for me 3 months. So... no, it was just a first phone call, I just assume the rest would've worked out.
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Old 18.05.2018, 01:20
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Re: Mutual consent

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.....And how would you ask this from the current employer? "hey boss, I'm going to this interview next week, can you please let me go 2 months early if they do want to employ me in the end? But if not, forgot I ever said anything"?
I would tell a potential employer that I might be able to start sooner as my present company is in reorg.

Then - if the time-thing were the only reason I can't get the new job - I would talk to my old boss, telling him about my chance and as they can't keep me in the position I'm in now this would be the best solution for both sides.

They can't let you keep your job, they can only offer you a "lower" one (unless they do this because they think you're not good enough at your present one, they know very well you won't be happy with it for long).
They may be happy to let you go, save some money and know things turned out well for you too.
Swiss employers are not normally standing in people's way just for the sake of standing in their way.

PS: Actually yes. This should have been part of the talk you had which ended with the "mutual agreement". You could have asked about the general posiibilty of leaving sooner, should you find a job immediately. Under the circumstances that would have been a legitimite question within the discussion.
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Old 18.05.2018, 01:22
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Re: Mutual consent

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Well, the last recruiter said my profile is an "absolute slam dunk for the job", but he really can't wait for me 3 months. So... no, it was just a first phone call, I just assume the rest would've worked out.
That's my experience with applying for contract jobs in Switzerland
Maybe the deciding factor was that I am domiciled in the west but the contracts were around Zurich/Zug/Lucerne... for me that was absolutely no issue and I assured them about it.
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