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Old 25.09.2018, 11:16
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Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

Hi all,

Ive just gotten fired due to unsatisfactory work performance (yes I admit i got too complacent in the job, on the other hand, nothing serious imo enough to warrent firing...anyway this would be discussion for another day and thread!)
My boss has let me go immediately (ie dont have to come into the office any more) but still as per law is paying me out my final two months notice period.
Because employers cannot provide a negative reference, he said he would write that i was terminated due to 'structural changes'. But since I expressed my concern that a future employer will read between the lines on that, he has also offered to allow me to resign.
Do I take it or leave it? I would have enough finances to bridge the 90 day RAV penalty.

Very appreciative for any input, thank you!
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Old 25.09.2018, 11:23
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

They can't write something that reads "between the lines" in your reference so ask for a rewrite if you are suspicious or you're not happy.

However, you will have to think about how you would answer a question in an interview if/when they ask you why you left your previous job.

As for the RAV, if you don't mind taking the hit, that's up to you. Just make sure you start looking for jobs now otherwise you'll pick up additional penalties for that, too.
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Old 25.09.2018, 11:27
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

NOOO.


Explanation> You are out of your job, you will go to the RAV to apply for support. They care a lot wether it was you who resigned, which means they will punish you by paying you less, or if you got fired. I know it is counterintuitive, but make SURE they fired you and it is clear in your papers.






In the 1980s this might have been a stigma, but anyone who survived the last financial crisis has been "downsized" at some point...
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Old 25.09.2018, 11:40
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

I agree.

The stigma of being fired is often over-stated.

I was fired from one job back in the 1990s. As with the OP, it was largely my own fault. I returned to the same company about 5 years later. Not the same boss and not the same department but stil within the same broader circle of people so I am sure they could have talked if they had wanted to, and maybe they did. But the topic didn't even come up in the interview.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:22
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

Where did the myth come from that employees are not allowed to write negative references?

There are rules for what is allowed and what not, but there is no general rule that says "negative things not allowed". One off negative happenings must not be mentioned but repeated dysfunction in teamwork for which only the employee is responsible simply can be mentioned. Also risks that are important for other employers like a cab driver who got laid off due to a drinking problem can and should be mentioned in references.

As for OP, getting fired is nothing weird or strange and happens to almost everybody, and don't risk your RAV for this.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:24
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

Edwin, could you please post a link to the rules you know of? Thanks.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:32
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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Edwin, could you please post a link to the rules you know of? Thanks.
There's a link somewhere on the forum. It was discussed not that long ago. I'll try to find it.

I know that the RAV will help you if they spot such a negative reference, or the "coded" references.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:35
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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Edwin, could you please post a link to the rules you know of? Thanks.
Read this some time ago due to an equal discussion.

https://www.ch.ch/en/reference/

Also it makes sense, if by law they can't be negative they lose all meaning and should be deemed worthless.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:36
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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In the 1980s this might have been a stigma, but anyone who survived the last financial crisis has been "downsized" at some point...
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I agree.

The stigma of being fired is often over-stated.
Agree.

The only place this really matters is at RAV and there you'll be better off having been terminated rather than having resigned yourself. So no, just leave things as is.


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Also it makes sense, if by law they can't be negative they lose all meaning and should be deemed worthless.
Well they are worthless indeed. That said, people incorrectly assume a reference letter is not allowed to be negative at all. That's not true. If you were a sucky employee then oh yes, it is very much allowed to write that.

What's not allowed is to inflate or even mention one-off negative incidents, bring up personal attacks etc and overall, the reference has to be "benevolent" so to speak. But that's it.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:39
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

Useful thread back in the days when EF managed to stay on topic for more than a page...
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:49
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

I still can't understand the point of a Reference which means absolutely nothing, and where nothing negative can be written: What is the point at all???

And it ensures that HR and bosses will just use the phone or the Stammtisch to find out the truth, the why and how ... 'Hey hans Ueli, what is it with this guy/woman? - should I give him/her a job?'.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:51
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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And it ensures that HR and bosses will just use the phone or the Stammtisch to find out the truth, the why and how ... 'Hey hans Ueli, what is it with this guy/woman? - should I give him/her a job?'.
That happens a lot. Stammtisch, LinkedIn, people you know in other companies, associations etc

You can be negative in a reference by not being overly positive. Still, it feels strange that you have to reword the truth.
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Old 25.09.2018, 12:58
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

Thank you all for the replies!

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They can't write something that reads "between the lines" in your reference so ask for a rewrite if you are suspicious or you're not happy.
well i mean in the sense of what they wont say in the reference. My boss has not expressed any ill will or that he intends to lay stones in my path. So at best it will be a bland reference just stating what my tasks were. At worst, perhaps some words that suggest sub-par performance. But most definitely as it will not be a glowing reference, wouldn't a future employer read between the lines on that? vs. if i got the same evaluation in the reference but the reference said i resign, instead of 'structural changes'

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However, you will have to think about how you would answer a question in an interview if/when they ask you why you left your previous job.
This is the biggest point im thinking about how to deal with. I feel if I said I quit, it is easier to justify by saying im looking for a new challenge etc., then otherwise or no?

if i truly was being laid off for reasons outside if my control that I would have no problem being terminated. But the truth is, that the firing really was on me and im just scared for that to impede my chances with a future employer.
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:00
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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Where did the myth come from that employees are not allowed to write negative references?


Its not entirely a myth. The law insists that it has to be a)true and b)"wohlwollend". I would translate that indeed with positive. The two requirements can in some cases be conflicting. There have been loads of court cases on these useless documents, so employers are careful not to cause unnecessary legal costs. When not sure do they rather stretch the truth in favor of the positiveness of the reference letter.


It got pretty apparent when a male nurse got like ten great references while in fact had a track record of abusing patients... https://www.tagesanzeiger.ch/schweiz...story/19281661


Bottom line: I could not care less about these documents. Ask for references to call and talk to people. I also proactively offer references myself instead of unloading a stack of meaningless documents on potential employers.
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:02
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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This is the biggest point im thinking about how to deal with. I feel if I said I quit, it is easier to justify by saying im looking for a new challenge etc., then otherwise or no?
As others have said, a lot of people have been laid off for that reason, happens to many and most people understand that it happens. Nothing to be ashamed or afraid of.

If you quit, a lot will then depend on how quick you find a new job. Oh I resigned to be off to pastures new, but couldn´t find a job for a year?
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:10
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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Where did the myth come from that employees are not allowed to write negative references?

There are rules for what is allowed and what not, but there is no general rule that says "negative things not allowed". One off negative happenings must not be mentioned but repeated dysfunction in teamwork for which only the employee is responsible simply can be mentioned. Also risks that are important for other employers like a cab driver who got laid off due to a drinking problem can and should be mentioned in references.

As for OP, getting fired is nothing weird or strange and happens to almost everybody, and don't risk your RAV for this.
i just keep reading that it is illegal for employers to give a negative reference which on one hand calms me but on the other hand i am of the same opinion as many other posters...what is the point of a reference if it can never be negative. I never did anything of such gross misconduct as your cab driver example, or losing the company billions, etc. I got along with all coworkers too and did do the work of the day that needed to get out. just i was a bit complacent and got a bit sloppy.

Thank you as well for your words of encouragement, yes firings happen all the time, but its one thing for it have been out of your control and another when it was your fault
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:13
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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i just keep reading that it is illegal for employers to give a negative reference
It's not.
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:14
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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...

Also it makes sense, if by law they can't be negative they lose all meaning and should be deemed worthless.
I think it's just custom and habit. Many employers and employees don't know that references are effectively worthless.

In 1995, I asked my French boss if he'd be happy to provide a reference for my new employer. He said "sure, but aren't they only for nannies and the like".
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:20
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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I think it's just custom and habit. Many employers and employees don't know that references are effectively worthless.

In 1995, I asked my French boss if he'd be happy to provide a reference for my new employer. He said "sure, but aren't they only for nannies and the like".
Yep, and to me it's also a Swiss thing. Back "home" I've never been asked about references, sure I have some in my bookkeeping, but of half the employers I could never be bothered, and my last employer never gave me one since he was pissed off that I resigned.
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Old 25.09.2018, 13:24
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Re: Just got fired, but given the option to resign. Take it or leave it?

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As others have said, a lot of people have been laid off for that reason, happens to many and most people understand that it happens. Nothing to be ashamed or afraid of.
yes generally i agree that firing is commonplace these days but in my case it really was through fault of my own. nothing of gross misconduct but i admit i could have performed better. on the other hand maybe the company wasn't for me and I needed something of greater stimulation. At any rate just super scared how this experience will affect my chances with a future employer and i'm wanting to mitigate what I can hence why i thought saying i resign would look better

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If you quit, a lot will then depend on how quick you find a new job. Oh I resigned to be off to pastures new, but couldn´t find a job for a year?
yes, ok valid point well taken!
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