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Old 10.10.2018, 18:06
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Re: employer late - payment due?

Here's an update.

Before this issue could be resolved, the employee resigned, stating unilaterally that it would be with immediate effect (i.e. not respecting the notice period) for "health reasons".

Next, employee wrote a kurt mail demanding payment for the four hours during which it had not been possible to work "through no fault of his own".

Employer replied, encorporating good ideas from this thread, to say that the employee had not been prevented from working for the full four hours, but only for the first 30 minutes, or maximum an hour, if one allows a generous rounding-up of the travelling time it would have taken to return to work.

The employee responded very, very rudely.
The employer paid one hour's wage, issued the earnings statement for tax purposes, and closed the file.

The explanation? Not known. Perhaps the employee just wanted out, without having had the courage to have said so, plainly, and used the employer's delay as a calatyst. What a poor show when a four-year, good working relationship is shattered by one party becoming offensive.

I am certain that if someone reliable with whom I had been working comfortably and efficiently, for several years, just didn't turn up as arranged, I would, in the first, place, assume a misunderstanding, and in the second place be concerned for their safety, rather than taking offence, let alone wilfully causing any. In any case I would consider it my duty, both as party to the working relationship, and just as a co-human on the planet, to answer a phonecall or sms from them, in case they were in need, and so we could agree when the work could be continued.

The ideas on this thread helped the employer to deal with the matter swiftly and efficiently, and hopefully this is the end of this chapter. Thank you.
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  #22  
Old 10.10.2018, 18:09
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Re: employer late - payment due?

In short: Employee is an idiot.
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  #23  
Old 10.10.2018, 18:23
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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Here's an update.

Before this issue could be resolved, the employee resigned, stating unilaterally that it would be with immediate effect (i.e. not respecting the notice period) for "health reasons".

Next, employee wrote a kurt mail demanding payment for the four hours during which it had not been possible to work "through no fault of his own".

Employer replied, encorporating good ideas from this thread, to say that the employee had not been prevented from working for the full four hours, but only for the first 30 minutes, or maximum an hour, if one allows a generous rounding-up of the travelling time it would have taken to return to work.

The employee responded very, very rudely.
The employer paid one hour's wage, issued the earnings statement for tax purposes, and closed the file.

The explanation? Not known. Perhaps the employee just wanted out, without having had the courage to have said so, plainly, and used the employer's delay as a calatyst. What a poor show when a four-year, good working relationship is shattered by one party becoming offensive.

I am certain that if someone reliable with whom I had been working comfortably and efficiently, for several years, just didn't turn up as arranged, I would, in the first, place, assume a misunderstanding, and in the second place be concerned for their safety, rather than taking offence, let alone wilfully causing any. In any case I would consider it my duty, both as party to the working relationship, and just as a co-human on the planet, to answer a phonecall or sms from them, in case they were in need, and so we could agree when the work could be continued.

The ideas on this thread helped the employer to deal with the matter swiftly and efficiently, and hopefully this is the end of this chapter. Thank you.
There are always two sides of one story:

- Sounds like the employee was not happy with the job, being just on the edge of quitting, otherwise he's an i** as @EdwinNL summarized

- Sounds like the employer did not mind loosing a good employee just because of one time misunderstanding. The hiring costs are perhaps higher than the 3 hours wage and there's an immediate void. He's also an i** then.
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  #24  
Old 10.10.2018, 19:24
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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- Sounds like the employer did not mind loosing a good employee just because of one time misunderstanding. The hiring costs are perhaps higher than the 3 hours wage and there's an immediate void. He's also an i** then.
As I understand it, the employer wanted to continue the working relationship, and said so. That was true on that that day, for those immediate hours, and was affirmed by the employer, to the employee, after that incident.

The employee, however, resigned before the issue of the payment/hours came up, stating that he was unavailable for any discussion about his resignation. Subsequently, with regard to payment, the employee has refused to engage in the several attempts at constructive dialogue, other than to make viscious remarks which have now destroyed what was, till then, an apparently working relationship(s), also with colleagues in the team. Everyone who has been attacked (verbally, that is) is shocked.

You are right, though, that the employer is now faced with the immediate loss of the employee's needed work (on that day, and from the resignation onwards) and will have to bear the costs of calming the other employees, and of recruiting a replacement.
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Old 10.10.2018, 19:35
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Re: employer late - payment due?

Bit dump as well as he will be have some issues if he goes to RAV
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Old 10.10.2018, 19:37
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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You are right, though, that the employer is now faced with the immediate loss of the employee's needed work (on that day, and from the resignation onwards) and will have to bear the costs of calming the other employees, and of recruiting a replacement.
for which the employee is liable as he resigned without notice
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Old 10.10.2018, 21:43
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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Here's an update.

Before this issue could be resolved, the employee resigned, stating unilaterally that it would be with immediate effect (i.e. not respecting the notice period) for "health reasons".

Next, employee wrote a kurt mail demanding payment for the four hours during which it had not been possible to work "through no fault of his own".

Employer replied, encorporating good ideas from this thread, to say that the employee had not been prevented from working for the full four hours, but only for the first 30 minutes, or maximum an hour, if one allows a generous rounding-up of the travelling time it would have taken to return to work.

The employee responded very, very rudely.
The employer paid one hour's wage, issued the earnings statement for tax purposes, and closed the file.

The explanation? Not known. Perhaps the employee just wanted out, without having had the courage to have said so, plainly, and used the employer's delay as a calatyst. What a poor show when a four-year, good working relationship is shattered by one party becoming offensive.

I am certain that if someone reliable with whom I had been working comfortably and efficiently, for several years, just didn't turn up as arranged, I would, in the first, place, assume a misunderstanding, and in the second place be concerned for their safety, rather than taking offence, let alone wilfully causing any. In any case I would consider it my duty, both as party to the working relationship, and just as a co-human on the planet, to answer a phonecall or sms from them, in case they were in need, and so we could agree when the work could be continued.

The ideas on this thread helped the employer to deal with the matter swiftly and efficiently, and hopefully this is the end of this chapter. Thank you.
<<An employee has been working for an hourly wage, in four-hour shifts, once or twice per month, for about four years. The working times are agreed with the employer for the next month or so>>
4 hours a month - max. 8 hours a month if the employer felt the need. What kind of notice period did you imagine, employee should have?
While employer simply didn't call when they had no need, employee was kind enough to let employer know that they are no longer available for a possible future assignment.

If it really was "a month or so" and not less than two weeks the working hours were agreed on: Good.

I take it there was a contract all these years, on 4-8 hours a month, the pay, extra 8.33% for holidays which were listed separately on the monthly pay-slips. Or maybe there wasn't?

Nobody knows where employee went after they left and why the calls/sms weren't replied to. I repeat: It is okay for the employer having reasons not to reply but not for the employee?!?

I had to snigger about employee apparently being stupid as RAV will give them problems. Absolutely, as employee lived a happy life on these 4 - sometimes 8 hours - a month income they grabbed the chance to apply at RAV for 70 to 80% of that money and live in leisure.

Should the pay not have been as gorgeous as assumed in paragraph above, employee possibly had a tight schedule between all kinds of employers, being stood up fecks that and the planning on income up and is definitely a much bigger issue for employee than for the employer. And even if the employee did not earn a full living on such assignments, their schedule is as important as the "employer's".

Employee did not have to give reason for quitting. So never mind the reason given, it was either true or an excuse many employees who don't know the Swiss laws feel the need to give. In any case it's none of the employers business if one can even really talk about "employer" on these little assignments - an absolute max. of 96 hours a year.

Generally the problem is solved. The employee felt they no longer wanted to put up with what ever, the employer no longer needs to ponder about the employees reaction (although they could ponder and might find a thing or two to change in future but that is speculation ).

The general reaction on the thread was interesting. To me it sounded partly like "the silly bugger should be glad to have a 4-hour-a-month job and not develop arrogate feelings like pride, self-esteem". An other attitude mankind will most likely never overcome.
The employee's way of solving this was good in my eyes: Not worth arguing over for hours on end, move on, they got a life to live. After all, this was definitely not a life-sustaining job, which would be a different matter.
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  #28  
Old 10.10.2018, 21:52
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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The working times are agreed with the employer for the next month or so 4 hours a month - max. 8 hours a month if the employer felt the need.
You nailed it!

People always focus only on the end of the thread
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  #29  
Old 10.10.2018, 22:48
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Re: employer late - payment due?

Your questions are good, Curley. Yes, though this was a small, part-time job, there was a proper written employment contract, with separately listed vacation pay, monthly pay-slips, annual form for tax purposes, accident insurance, etc., in short: all the legal requirements fulfilled. The notice period, too, was also defined in the contract.

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While employer simply didn't call when they had no need, employee was kind enough to let employer know that they are no longer available for a possible future assignment.
No, that isn't how it worked. The particular days on which the work would take place were agreed, in terms of the employment contract, month by month. It was never a case of the employer "simply didn't call".

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Nobody knows where employee went after they left and why the calls/sms weren't replied to. I repeat: It is okay for the employer having reasons not to reply but not for the employee?!?
No, it is not okay for either party not to call, and it is similarly unacceptable for either party to refuse to take the other one's calls, during working hours.

The employer made a planning mistake and arrived half-an-hour late, and called as soon as that mistake was realised, gave the reasons, apologised, and asked the employee to return (from wherever, close by, he would have been, since the call to him came 10 minutes after he had left) so that the outworkings of the error could be rectified immediately.

The employee, on the other hand, though still within the agreed working hours, left the agreed meeting point, and thereafter refused to reply to the employer's calls and sms, and did not return to work when asked to do so. I do think there's a difference.

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..., employee possibly had a tight schedule between all kinds of employers, being stood up fecks that and the planning on income up and is definitely a much bigger issue for employee than for the employer. And even if the employee did not earn a full living on such assignments, their schedule is as important as the "employer's".
As someone else pointed out above, the employee did not, in fact, need to rush off to any other scheduled appointment, since the time had been agreed and reserved for this job.

Indeed, had the employee wanted to earn the money, then he would have had all the more reason to take all reasonable steps to do so. Step one would have been to reply to the employer's phonecall, so that work could be commenced at the first possible opportunity. While it was the employer who made it impossible for the employee to do any work (other than waiting) during the first half-hour, thereafter it was the employee who made the work impossible.

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Employee did not have to give reason for quitting. So never mind the reason given, it was either true or an excuse many employees who don't know the Swiss laws feel the need to give. In any case it's none of the employers business
That's a valid point.

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The employee's way of solving this was good in my eyes: Not worth arguing over for hours on end, move on, they got a life to live.
I disagree with this. Walking away from an agreed, scheduled time of work and refusing to return to work when called is not, in my eyes, good. This is leaving the employer in the lurch, by breaching the contractual arrangement.

Yes, it would, indeed, have been far better (less damage) had the employer simply wanted to "move on". In that case, he would not, as he was leaving, have been verbally offensive towards the employer and colleagues. That was, on top of all the other things he had done, bad manners, unjustified, and moreover in further breach of the agreed code of behaviour.

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Generally the problem is solved. The employee felt they no longer wanted to put up with what ever, the employer no longer needs to ponder about the employees reaction (although they could ponder and might find a thing or two to change in future but that is speculation ).
The employment relationship is over, that's true. The employer's problem is, however, not solved, as the work itself has not been done, a substitute must be found, and settling things with the other employees will take a certain effort and time (i.e. also expense).

Yes, Curley, indeed, I wonder what this employer could possibly consider improving, so as not to have any further employer walk out in this way. Lessons to be learnt? Any recommendations, please?
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  #30  
Old 10.10.2018, 23:05
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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....
As someone else pointed out above, the employee did not, in fact, need to rush off to any other scheduled appointment, since the time had been agreed and reserved for this job.....
That was not someone else, that was me.

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..... Yes, Curley, indeed, I wonder what this employer could possibly consider improving, so as not to have any further employer walk out in this way. Lessons to be learnt? Any recommendations, please?
Nope. None. I was not there the past four years nor that day. Only the two people know what lead to the escalation.
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Old 10.10.2018, 23:08
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Re: employer late - payment due?

We don't know yet a lot to judge the situation. Where and what the employee was doing? Wasn't there involved any harsh conditions like letting the guy/gall wait on plain air in the middle of nowhere on a stormy weather, not answering any call... or anything like that?

Recommendations? Really care for a good employee. The employee was clearly not satisfied with the job or the wage. One issue and it was enough. The employer must have know the situation well so should really care not to loose such a good deal. Maybe we are talking here about a typical situation with a very small business where the employer thinks he has to pay too much for such work and the employee is constantly reflecting why is he doing the job for such a low income.
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  #32  
Old 10.10.2018, 23:26
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Re: employer late - payment due?

As far as I know from the employer's side, the employer remains in the dark, since the employee refuses to say. In this case only the employee knows what was wrong, from his perspective. So the employer is left wondering, exactly what you say...
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... the employer …. could ponder and might find a thing or two to change in future but that is speculation ).
but has found nothing.

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Wasn't there involved any harsh conditions like letting the guy/gall wait on plain air in the middle of nowhere on a stormy weather, not answering any call... or anything like that?
Nope. Comfortable waiting in his car, in mild weather.

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Recommendations? Really care for a good employee. The employee was clearly not satisfied with the job or the wage. One issue and it was enough. The employer must have know the situation well so should really care not to loose such a good deal. Maybe we are talking here about a typical situation with a very small business where the employer thinks he has to pay too much for such work and the employee is constantly reflecting why is he doing the job for such a low income.
As far as I understand it, in previous conversations between the employer and the employee, over the years, the employee had consistently said this was a good job for him, agreeable in atmosphere, interesting in content, practical in terms of access and working hours, good in that the wages were paid properly and punctually.

Even so, I think you might be right, Gramatyka and Curley. It is a very small employer, and perhaps the employee was dissatisfied all along, or increasingly, be it with the wage or with some other aspect of the employment (or with anything else in his life outside of work), but just did not ever say so, before. And then having to wait might have felt - for him - like one final straw… even though the employer had not realised that anything was amiss.

Maybe this is a case of "Fuuscht im Sack", literally translated as "fist in the pocket". It is a figure of speech, meaning that some annoyance is known and felt, but not expressed openly, until one day the person who has been nursing his grievance privately, keeping it hidden from those around him, suddenly can't hold back any longer, and lashes out and hits someone.
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  #33  
Old 11.10.2018, 09:21
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Re: employer late - payment due?

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In short: Employee is an idiot.
Lol indeed. What an immature way on the part of employee to handling this non-issue.
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