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  #21  
Old 24.02.2019, 00:56
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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Try finding something if you are about 50 and you'll find it is a very different situation.
I know two IT guys without any special skills in the 50-55 age group who found a job quickly (within 2 months) - that’s recent, ie both in the last 6 months. And they didn’t had to take a pay cut as compared to before (both above 100k, and as said, not even specialists in any area..)
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  #22  
Old 24.02.2019, 11:49
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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I know two IT guys without any special skills in the 50-55 age group who found a job quickly (within 2 months) - that’s recent, ie both in the last 6 months. And they didn’t had to take a pay cut as compared to before (both above 100k, and as said, not even specialists in any area..)
As others have said, it really does depend on the skill-set, and the industry.

Developers, technicians, IT Business analysts, AI specialists - it's a continually changing landscape. Especially in banking, where some roles are becoming redundant - has always been this way in IT, and is a natural progression considering the massive speed with which the industry develops.

Specialist or not, it's simply not possible to keep up-to-date in experience with all latest technology. And when you are earning very well above the 100k mark, the competition from younger candidates who absolved master degrees etc. covering all of the latest technologies is, rightfully, huge.
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  #23  
Old 24.02.2019, 18:31
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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If you are in networks, support etc then it's a different thing altogether.

what is going on in networks? asking for a friend.
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  #24  
Old 24.02.2019, 19:09
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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what is going on in networks? asking for a friend.
Got my last job through my network, i.e. someone I know
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  #25  
Old 25.02.2019, 00:45
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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The fact that someone who has 20 years experience in IT factors the RAV as a significant factor in his work-life raises many red flags to me. CH right now has negative employment in IT, anyone who wants a job gets one with the bare minimum skills.
only if agree for a barely fair salary

I second OP, there is a problem with IT jobs in Switzerland. For most of the jobs one needs to appear not really smart and experienced but rather a close minded trained well to push that one particular button. The old wisdom always reveals the truth, when you don't know what's going on, it's about the money.

Startups are particular group where they are often looking for experienced engineer but are unqualified to choose the right one. I've been rejected a few times when I actually gave a free consultation during the interview to let them understand what problem they face and how they might proceed. Even recently I quit a job because they have hired a wanna-be specialist instead of a really competent fellow, despite the fact that I gave them my recommendations clearly.

Of course we can debate what's the fair level of salary, but I just shrug with shock when I hear 100k or even less...
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Old 25.02.2019, 15:42
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

An example from the Java biosphere that shows how short the half-life period in IT is:

Swing/AWT outdated, now JavaFX
JSP outdated, now JSF
Applets - dead
J2EE outdated, nowt Java EE
RMI outdated, now SOAP/REST/Akka
Spring outdated, now Java EE 6
....
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  #27  
Old 25.02.2019, 16:06
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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An example from the Java biosphere that shows how short the half-life period in IT is:

Swing/AWT outdated, now JavaFX
JSP outdated, now JSF
Applets - dead
J2EE outdated, nowt Java EE
RMI outdated, now SOAP/REST/Akka
Spring outdated, now Java EE 6
....
SQL is pretty much the same from the 80s.

No need to chase the latest fad language.
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  #28  
Old 25.02.2019, 16:12
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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An example from the Java biosphere that shows how short the half-life period in IT is:

Swing/AWT outdated, now JavaFX
JSP outdated, now JSF
Applets - dead
J2EE outdated, nowt Java EE
RMI outdated, now SOAP/REST/Akka
Spring outdated, now Java EE 6
....
I think you are a bit behind the times. Anyone in their right mind would not touch SOAP with a barge pole these days.

Same for JSF. it is all Javascript (Angular React etc) these days.

Also JavaEE is just the new name of J2EE and it was introduced in 2006!
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  #29  
Old 25.02.2019, 16:56
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

so lets take a look at a more recent example:

A friend invested a lot of time learning and working with AngularJS, then Angular 2 came out and was completely different and he had to find out that it ... sucks - he was so frustrated.
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  #30  
Old 25.02.2019, 17:09
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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so lets take a look at a more recent example:

A friend invested a lot of time learning and working with AngularJS, then Angular 2 came out and was completely different and he had to find out that it ... sucks - he was so frustrated.
The changes were announced more than 1,5yr before the first release candidate of Angular2 and almost 2 yrs before the first final candidate. Also there was almost a year between first Beta and official release.

What's the problem? Either he had some yrs in between, or he did not follow up and decided to learn a framework of which was known it would be replaced by something different.
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  #31  
Old 25.02.2019, 19:47
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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An example from the Java biosphere that shows how short the half-life period in IT is:

Swing/AWT outdated, now JavaFX
JSP outdated, now JSF
Applets - dead
J2EE outdated, nowt Java EE
RMI outdated, now SOAP/REST/Akka
Spring outdated, now Java EE 6
....
yeah, a bunch of butter for scripting kinds so why are you surprised

By contrast a few examples of very cool stuff still not outdated after more than 20 years:
If you know C, it's still relevant
if you know C++, well only one major update in 2011, the rest if just little syntax sugar changes
if you know Linux kernel architecture, how to port it to a new hardware, how to write boot loaders, etc, it's still relevant
if you know Windows kernel, Win32 API, it's still relevant
if you know how to develop real time systems, it's still relevant
if you know how to write efficient software optimized for the hardware, it's still relevant
if you know how to develop algorithms, it's still relevant
... there's many more things which you can't replace by fiddling ML mambo jumbo in python/Javascript/Rubby over the subject
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  #32  
Old 25.02.2019, 20:03
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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IT guys, how do you overcome of the same issue when hunting for jobs? I am not in panic (yet ), just annoyed of the recurring, never ending situation, independently of how long I am in Switzerland or how many good recommendations I have...
Sometimes having the right experience also doesn't help.
I once lost a job because the interviewer (2nd stage interview after a long exam) insisted that I must remember which java version the UI was running on, and since I actually had the real-life experience and we found out that the software's documentation was specifying the wrong java version for that specific UI version, I ended up losing the job because I forgot to lie accordingly, because the interviewer didn't really have the experience, but was checking my knowledge against the wrong documentation.
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Old 25.02.2019, 20:31
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

When giving interviews, I do my best to give candidates a free choice of language and not let that choice affect my opinion. However, I think that our recruiters may have developed the habit of pinning the candidate down to a language ahead of time.

My usual comment to somebody looking forward (if forward is the correct term) to a Google Software Engineer interview, is that most probably, at least one question will come up that has a dynamic programming solution, and that it looks very good if you find that solution.

Now, to be clear, not every question will be so, and dynamic programming is only part of knowing something about algorithms. Furthermore, questions with dynamic programming solutions tend to be a bit binary, in that either the candidate finds the key recurrence or doesn't. And when they are binary in this way, that makes them less good as questions. I can't even say that dynamic programming comes up often in practice, though I have seen it come up.

However, this technique is approximately as hard of an algorithms technique as one can expect a non-specialist to apply in an interview, and especially if you are impressing your interviewers, the odds of somebody throwing such a puzzle at you are good. The odds of them having seen many previous candidates fail to find the recurrence are also good.

Anyway, I'm not sure this solves anything, but I wanted to point out that not everybody is focused on chasing current technology: Wikipedia says dynamic programming was developed in the 50s, which is a bit before my time, but seems believable.
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  #34  
Old 25.02.2019, 20:50
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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Wikipedia says dynamic programming was developed in the 50s, which is a bit before my time, but seems believable.
The funny part is that dynamic programming is that it's nothing fancy, just a natural logical way of blindly trying to see a pattern. Coming from electronics I never learned about dynamic programming. The very few times someone asked me about dynamic programming I answered what is it? Something like last year I read a chapter about dynamic programming and I couldn't laugh more. However, it is indeed tough in terms of interview, you either see a solution within a short time or you have to sleep on it and it pops out itself some time later.
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  #35  
Old 07.03.2019, 11:40
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

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I am just annoyed how picky are the employers... how did you overcome of the same problem as I face with?

I am a contractor in my IT field since 20 years (10 years in Switzerland with couple of different clients with excellent references) and experiencing many times that the employers want someone with 110% coverage of their job spec. Even if I have proved x million times my ability to deliver solutions effectively, if I lack 5% of the job requirements (let's say a new framework, or similar, what i could learn in few days - at the end I am an IT engineer and have to do this daily once in a job...) I get no interview invitation because of that.

So it seems that even with 20 years of exp., recent certifications, strong specialisation in the field, the employers rather wait (even years) till they find a perfect candidate from all over the world... Classic chicken-egg problem: how can I have the needed, proven work experience (which should be confirmed by the references if they are asked) if I do not get a chance to work with that tool? I thought it is an issue only of a junior developers, but with 20 years of experience I used to fill already senior/architect roles... As only the real work experience helps here, the self-study,trainings, certifications would not help. Then what is the solution? The funny side of the story, that the employers are complaining that there are not enough skilled IT people...

How could a software developer settle down in Switzerland (buy house, establish family, etc), if our profession has so short lifetime and once there is no demand for our expertise? There is no chance to retrain us (and get a job in the new field). And all of this when you are a single earner supporting a family.

For such stupid situation I see only one stupid solution, but no idea how to achieve it: work for free for employers (during RAV time), switch among them frequently (maybe RAV can help here) and fill the little experience gaps to increase my chance the get interview invitations again.

IT guys, how do you overcome of the same issue when hunting for jobs? I am not in panic (yet ), just annoyed of the recurring, never ending situation, independently of how long I am in Switzerland or how many good recommendations I have...
You need to get new certifications.

It's much easier for people who have up to date certifications to get jobs.

Employers love people who brush up their skills...

Your problem may also be that the competition is much higher than a couple of years ago. People come here with good degrees and experience + certifications + German + English + other foreign language skills.

So it's definitely harder to land a job than 10 years ago. Companies can be picky and only hire a 100% match (even though a 100% match doesn't mean they are the right person).
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  #36  
Old 08.03.2019, 10:11
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Re: IT engineer with 20 years of experience - no chance when 5% skills lack

A job spec tends to be written by someone who is not technical or might have once been technical in a past life and changed career path and gone into HR. It’s why you’ll see specs occasionally look for five years experience in something that was only released two years ago.

Additionally, specs describe a ‘perfect’ candidate. They’re not going to get such a person, and they know they won’t. There’s too many technologies, languages, frameworks, patterns, tools out there to realistically be a programming Goldielocks.

So, having done ‘Hello World’ is sufficient in many cases, depending on how critical it is to the role, because they’ll expect you to get up to speed anyway. Other factors include whether the role is contract or permanent, as the latter is seen as an investment and so your long-term growth is more important that short term proficiency.

So I don’t think your problem is your skill set. I would look at other possible factors.
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