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  #41  
Old 27.07.2019, 04:31
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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In my career I have learned that pushing the salary up because you can is not the best thing. It is essential to know what are the salaries on your level in the organization. If you ask for the highest salary you ask for a hard times, people will know.
This is a great point, I just got off of a foul contract. One of the things that spoiled it for me was an incentive for management to work the other contractors because they negotiated much lower day rates. I know this is not really the same circumstance, but I think the point of getting paid high is not always a recipe for financial success :P . I threw away a steady well paying job for a high risk, high paying contracting job and I got burned hard. To be fair, I should never of told my coworkers that I was hired me on in a higher position, it caused undue polarization.
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  #42  
Old 27.07.2019, 09:09
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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Well congrats on the offer. To be frank, and others will probably disagree with me, I just don't see the point in relocating here unless the money is really good or you are avid skiers/outdoor enthusiasts who just love nature. You don't mention how old the kids are or what your wife does? Are the kids of school age? Will they stay at home with mom or go to a nursery? Will your wife be happy sitting at home in Argau not being able to speak German? All of these are considerations with financial implications. For example, a private nursery costs 2K per month per child. If you want your kids to learn German and attend the local schools (which is advised) its really the best way for them to integrate and learn German. The more info you provide the easier it will be to assess if you will have a decent life here on 120K. Plenty of people will say "oh 120K is a massive salary and the average Swiss lives on 60K" but that average Swiss family may have a stay at home mom speaking fluent Swiss German to her kids and having no need to expensive childcare.
Thank you. For me the biggest driver is new experience as was Canada back in the day and proximity of everything in Europe. The kids are school age (10, 14) and they would have to go to a regular school. Wife does not speak German and I do to some limited degree so some adjustment will definitely be required on our part.
One of the biggest concerns that we have is that I get that kind of salary here in Canada where everything is cheaper (but taxes are somewhat higher). So I've been trying to determine if the level of comfort would drop and how much. I've collected a mixture of opinions from this thread, the forum as a whole, tax and income calculators, etc. Still thinking..
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  #43  
Old 27.07.2019, 17:13
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Re: Salary Negotiation

There are two questions you need to consider:

1) Will your wife be happy not being able to work and will she be committed to learning German so she could work and build a social life? I've seen numerous ex-pat couples move here where one is happy and the other is miserable and this often leads to divorce.

2) Are your kids academic and do they want to go to university? With your oldest being 14 and in high school I doubt he/she will be able to learn German well enough to be able to attend university here. Your 10 year old might have a chance but it will be extremely hard. You would either have to send them to English speaking private schools (about CHF 30-40K per year) or put them in the local schools and accept the fact that their German skills will be far behind their peers. Also, social circles are formed quite early here so the 14 year old, with his/her lack of language skills, might struggle to to have the same kind of social life he/she has in Canada.

If the kids were 4 and 6 I would say go for it but at 10 and 14 I think you need to think long and hard about their education and what this move would mean for that. I grew up in the Hammer (Hamilton, Ontario) so I have some perspective from a Canadian point of view.
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  #44  
Old 28.07.2019, 03:45
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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There are two questions you need to consider:

1) Will your wife be happy not being able to work and will she be committed to learning German so she could work and build a social life? I've seen numerous ex-pat couples move here where one is happy and the other is miserable and this often leads to divorce.

2) Are your kids academic and do they want to go to university? With your oldest being 14 and in high school I doubt he/she will be able to learn German well enough to be able to attend university here. Your 10 year old might have a chance but it will be extremely hard. You would either have to send them to English speaking private schools (about CHF 30-40K per year) or put them in the local schools and accept the fact that their German skills will be far behind their peers. Also, social circles are formed quite early here so the 14 year old, with his/her lack of language skills, might struggle to to have the same kind of social life he/she has in Canada.

If the kids were 4 and 6 I would say go for it but at 10 and 14 I think you need to think long and hard about their education and what this move would mean for that. I grew up in the Hammer (Hamilton, Ontario) so I have some perspective from a Canadian point of view.
All good points, thank you.
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  #45  
Old 28.07.2019, 10:44
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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2) Are your kids academic and do they want to go to university? With your oldest being 14 and in high school I doubt he/she will be able to learn German well enough to be able to attend university here. Your 10 year old might have a chance but it will be extremely hard. You would either have to send them to English speaking private schools (about CHF 30-40K per year) or put them in the local schools and accept the fact that their German skills will be far behind their peers. Also, social circles are formed quite early here so the 14 year old, with his/her lack of language skills, might struggle to to have the same kind of social life he/she has in Canada.

If the kids were 4 and 6 I would say go for it but at 10 and 14 I think you need to think long and hard about their education and what this move would mean for that. I grew up in the Hammer (Hamilton, Ontario) so I have some perspective from a Canadian point of view.
This is a very good point. The money is less of a problem than the age. 14 is not a good age for moving here. Forget taxation etc. for a moment and read up about the Swiss education systems. Not all cantons are they same so check what you need for Zug or the area where you will move to. Streaming into the different streams is often done around 14 which might hinder the options of your elder child. Think long and hard. I wouldn't move a 14 year old, I think it's too late. Just my opinion.
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  #46  
Old 28.07.2019, 14:48
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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This is a very good point. The money is less of a problem than the age. 14 is not a good age for moving here. Forget taxation etc. for a moment and read up about the Swiss education systems. Not all cantons are they same so check what you need for Zug or the area where you will move to. Streaming into the different streams is often done around 14 which might hinder the options of your elder child. Think long and hard. I wouldn't move a 14 year old, I think it's too late. Just my opinion.
Agree. We moved here when our kids were 10 & 12. We knew our son(12) would be happy to do an apprenticeship instead of further schooling and uni. Even so he could not get his dream apprenticeship due to lack of German and had to choose something else. He is happy now, but it was a struggle. 14 is too late. She will never learn enough German quickly enough to access gymi (academic high school ) and will even struggle getting an apprenticeship.
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  #47  
Old 28.07.2019, 14:56
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Also have an honest conversation with your 14 year old. Even in Canada at that age I was already streamed into academic and applied programs.


Perhaps they would not mind as they had plans on going to Uni back in Canada. Assuming they are citizens they can always go back to finish their post-secondary schooling there.
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  #48  
Old 28.07.2019, 15:33
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Re: Salary Negotiation

With a 14 year old, it would be impossible for them to integrate into the school quickly enough...it would seriously stunt their development for the future. Keep in mind that high German is not spoken amongst the children, therefore he/she would have to learn German plus the local Swiss dialect in order to have any chance at a normal life.

I know it is hard to turn down such an opportunity, but I have seen so many families struggle with integrating their children into a new life, even in private English speaking international schools that would be unaffordable with your proposed salary.
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  #49  
Old 02.08.2019, 15:20
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Re: Salary Negotiation

Many people want to negotiate a job offer but don't know how to do it.

"I'm the best person you're going to find!" is not anybody's best negotiating stance. If you weren't the best candidate for the role, they wouldn't have extended an offer in the first place.
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  #50  
Old 02.08.2019, 19:59
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Re: Salary Negotiation

ABB has grades, and they are about +/- 7%, so not much to negotiate.

Also consider there is ongoing restructuring and hiring ban (your skills are obviously quite rare if they are hiring externally these days). And yes, if you are Lenzburg or Oerlikon (not HQ), you are actually being hired by Hitachi, not ABB.
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  #51  
Old 02.08.2019, 21:06
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Re: Salary Negotiation

I concur the 14 y.o. concerns.
In the German speaking cantons up to about 20-25% gets to an academic stream and the streaming is at the age of 12-13 in AG. Due to the effective number limit the bar is set quite high. Being 14 your child could go age-wise to 2 or 3 (and last) year of a 3 year school that follows a 6 year primary school.
However, for apprencitenships or secondary vocational schools the children apply already after the 2nd year of the 3 year school, so your kid would have little time to get good grades without prior German knowledge.

I would recommend getting immediately in touch with such schools in the catchment area where you think you'd live to see what the options could be.
Here it also happens that kids entry to primary school can be delayed and I think also for a foreign kid a year for catching up with German could be maybe possible.
Wrt to the dialect: while important, all school life happens mostly in high German, and e.g. my son who attended 1st grade learned high German and little dialect and still was ok with his buddies.

I know for sure that the primary schools offer for free additional German lessons to foreign children and that worked great for our children, but the oldest was 7 when we moved to Argau and then 9 when we moved to Vaud.
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Old 03.08.2019, 03:27
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Re: Salary Negotiation

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Agree. We moved here when our kids were 10 & 12. We knew our son(12) would be happy to do an apprenticeship instead of further schooling and uni. Even so he could not get his dream apprenticeship due to lack of German and had to choose something else. He is happy now, but it was a struggle. 14 is too late. She will never learn enough German quickly enough to access gymi (academic high school ) and will even struggle getting an apprenticeship.
To be fair though, the academic route is still open even after an apprenticeship, through a few different options.
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  #53  
Old 05.08.2019, 14:57
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Re: Salary Negotiation

I know of a family who moved to Zurich, knowing no German nor Swiss German, when their kids were 11 and 13. Both kids went through uni just fine, if I remember correctly they had private lessons to start with, and then just integrated in the school system. Especially if they're used to moving, as OP said he moved to Canada, I'd say the kids will have no problems.
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