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-   -   ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl (https://www.englishforum.ch/employment/292384-anobag-any-experiences-good-bad-ugl.html)

expat in switzerland 06.06.2019 16:51

ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Hi there,
Have the possibility of working for an overseas company (no presence in CH) and would commute whilst spending more than 50% of year in CH. Is ANOBAG an option to ensure I keep social benefits running in CH, thinking unemployment insurance etc?

Any insights greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

slammer 06.06.2019 20:15

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by expat in switzerland (Post 3074081)
Hi there,
Have the possibility of working for an overseas company (no presence in CH) and would commute whilst spending more than 50% of year in CH. Is ANOBAG an option to ensure I keep social benefits running in CH, thinking unemployment insurance etc?

Any insights greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

There are a few threads on the topic of ANOBAG, but I can tell you that ANOBAG is bad, very bad.

eairicbloodaxe 06.06.2019 21:17

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by slammer (Post 3074162)
There are a few threads on the topic of ANOBAG, but I can tell you that ANOBAG is bad, very bad.


It was so bad I had to shut down my UK company when I came here. It was just easier than all the extra shit.


Caveat. I no speaka da Zurich lingo... If you "do" the German, you might find it a breeze,


Regards




Ian

dm3 07.06.2019 09:28

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
It's not that bad, really.

You only need to pay the AHV share for both the employee - you - and the employer. So 2x the AHV contribution which you can factor in your contract. Furthermore, if the company is domiciled outside EU/EEA you don't have to contribute to Säule 2 pension, although you still can through the Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung, or pay the work-related UVG (Unfallversicherung).

You are then treated as a normally employed person (unselbständige erwerbstätigkeit) for tax purposes.

Steve 07.06.2019 11:05

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
To be employed in Switzerland by a foreign domiciled employer you can use the ANOBAG scheme. This effectively stands for "Employee without a Swiss domiciled employer".

You need to:

- Register as ANOBAG with your local Social (AHV/AVS) office. They will ask you for employer details, and the (estimated) salary to be paid.

- (For EU/EEA employers) apply for a Professional (Pillar 2) pension scheme (BVG). This should be possible with all the major pension companies. (Zürich, AXA, Swisslife, Stiftung Auffangeinrichtung etc.)

- Apply for professional accident insurance (covers you for accidents in- and outside work worldwide - treatment and salary cover). This is normally mandatory. You can do this with SUVA, or any insurance company (AXA, Zürich, Vaudoise etc)

- I suggest you get your employer to cover you also for sickness insurance (KTG).

- And of course, register with your local tax office (sourcetax department). if you are required to pay tax at source (usually the case unless you or your partner has a c-permit), you will usually need to make a return to them based on your salary each month.

Each of these will send you an invoice stating which part of the premium is to be paid by the employer, and which by the employee. The employer part you can bill your employer for. The employee part you pay yourself.

Although insurance premiums are actually invoiced for the 1st January, all the bills can usually be paid in regular installments throughout the year base don estimated salary. At the end of the year you will report your actual salary and receive final statements based on this.

You should be able to do all of the above online these days. The pension, accident and sickness insurance companies will all be able to converse with you in English. The Social office, and tax office may find this more difficult but they are improving each year. In larger cities they tend to speak English.

I also advise you to negotiate your salary in CHF if possible, otherwise you may need to convert each monthly salary to CHF using the Swiss Federal accounting tax rate for that month for your reporting.

Hope this helps. We have dealt with ANOBAGs before with no big problem. If you have more questions you can always contact me (Swiss payroll company :-)).

eairicbloodaxe 08.06.2019 09:43

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Now try doing all the above when a) you don't speak any German and b) you've only just arrived...

I guess the key point is what is it worth to you. For me it wasn't financially viable as I was running down that business anyway. If it's your main income, or a substantial income, it will be worth doing.

As with all things Swiss administration-wise, once you know how it works, it is not so difficult. And the above from dm3 is a good explanation.

Regards


Ian

expat in switzerland 08.06.2019 10:01

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Thanks for all the input. I speak German so not too worried about the forms etc, just needed to understand the principle and whether worth the effort of discussing with potential employer.

robBob 08.06.2019 10:06

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by expat in switzerland (Post 3074524)
Thanks for all the input. I speak German so not too worried about the forms etc, just needed to understand the principle and whether worth the effort of discussing with potential employer.

Believe what you need is a payroll company.

https://www.englishforum.ch/business...-provider.html

They will provide you with salary estimates and can arrange to bill your clients.

bailout 09.06.2019 18:33

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by expat in switzerland (Post 3074524)
Thanks for all the input. I speak German so not too worried about the forms etc, just needed to understand the principle and whether worth the effort of discussing with potential employer.

I would say that keeping your eligibility for unemployment benefits is very much worth all the bother of setting up as an ANOBAG.

From the best of my understanding, the only disadvantage is the initial admin setup effort (finding a BVG provider for anobag), and your 2x AHV contribution that will fall on your shoulders.

For some people in certain situations, it's a really good solution.

expat in switzerland 10.06.2019 18:30

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
I’d agree, keeping future social benefits is a huge benefit. I’ll update the thread once I’m either set up or otherwise sorted.

In the meantime thanks for all the input - super helpful.

yordan 11.06.2019 21:43

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Does anybody know how ANOBAG is called in Italian and French cantons? Or is it only available in ZH?

I am considering a remote position from the USA, so I've just been exploring under what form of business should I operate for the tax purposes. Thought about one man Ltd or self-employed but this ANOBAG may be more appropriate as it would give me the same status as employed in Switzerland (social coverage etc) from what you have written so far in this thread. I would like to talk to the authorities in VS.

Could anyone share any sample monthly salary calculation for ANOBAG? I just wonder what and how much have to be paid.

expat in switzerland 16.06.2019 11:46

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
just wanted to provide a quick update and maybe pose another question to the group.

I contacted the local AHV office, seems very straightforward to set up the ANoBAG, no time limit on running it and they do not need the contract, just estimated earnings based on which they will issue a payment plan (every 3 months) with review at the yr end.

question: regarding pillar 2 pension, I would need to set this up myself, do I then need to transfer my vested benefits into this acct (as one would with a normal Swiss employer) or could I eve where currently invested?

thank.

Mullhollander 16.06.2019 12:12

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by yordan (Post 3075086)
Does anybody know how ANOBAG is called in Italian and French cantons? Or is it only available in ZH?

I am considering a remote position from the USA, so I've just been exploring under what form of business should I operate for the tax purposes. Thought about one man Ltd or self-employed but this ANOBAG may be more appropriate as it would give me the same status as employed in Switzerland (social coverage etc) from what you have written so far in this thread. I would like to talk to the authorities in VS.

Could anyone share any sample monthly salary calculation for ANOBAG? I just wonder what and how much have to be paid.

This link is to an ANOBAG application form for Canton Valais (French):

https://www.vs.ch/documents/1787090/...2-2fe305ed61f0

This is a link to ANOBAG information for Canton Vaud (French). It includes social charge percentages and detail information:

https://www.caisseavsvaud.ch/particu...nu-de-cotiser/

Steve 16.06.2019 13:27

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by expat in switzerland (Post 3076027)
just wanted to provide a quick update and maybe pose another question to the group.

I contacted the local AHV office, seems very straightforward to set up the ANoBAG, no time limit on running it and they do not need the contract, just estimated earnings based on which they will issue a payment plan (every 3 months) with review at the yr end.

question: regarding pillar 2 pension, I would need to set this up myself, do I then need to transfer my vested benefits into this acct (as one would with a normal Swiss employer) or could I eve where currently invested?

thank.

The rule for 2nd Pillar is that the vested benefits are transferred to the new scheme. However a lot of people leave their benefits in the old account. In fact many people forget the even have any benefits to transfer!

Danieldreier 27.06.2019 18:15

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
I was registered as ANobAG for the 2.5 years that I worked for a Singapore company. On the whole, it was pretty straightforward.


For me, the main disadvantages over working for a Swiss employer were:
1. You pay the full Swiss social security premiums. Your foreign employer doesn't have to pay half.
2. No occupational pension fund. It's possible to use a plan from the Substitute Occupational Benefit Institution and pay your full contributions yourself, but I simply cashed out.
3. No rights to paid sick leave, paid military/maternity leave or paid vacations. It's all up to your employment contract, and arbitration can be difficult when you and your employer are in different jurisdictions.
4. No employer-based accident insurance. You have to activate the accident cover on your health insurance and that cover doesn't include loss of income insurance like accident insurance from employers does.

I'm sure I'm stating the obvious by recommending that anyone considering working for a foreign employer take the full cost of covering loss of income from accidents and fully funding your retirement plan and social security into account.

Obviously it comes down to the salary and benefits offered by the foreign employer.

HanChenFL 21.03.2020 10:33

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Hi all,
A few questions for folks doing ANOBAG:
1. The company handling my residence permit contacted the Econ Affairs bureau in Zurich to check if I'd need a work permit to keep working remotely for my US company that has no offices here (separate from the residence permit I'll receive soon). The bureau said no work permit is needed because my job has nothing to do with the Swiss labor market. Is that accurate? Really hope so because that's what I told my employer!

2. How hard is it arranging ANOBAG? Did your home company in the other country help pay costs, or help with the process?

3. Did you handle ANOBAG on your own or hire a company?

4. If hiring a company, any relatively inexpensive one you could recommend? This is just for one person (me), so I'm hoping to find somewhere that can help figure out the paperwork/arrangements with my employer easily for all of these payments and forms.

Thank you!

Mullhollander 21.03.2020 12:19

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HanChenFL (Post 3161410)
Hi all,
A few questions for folks doing ANOBAG:
1. The company handling my residence permit contacted the Econ Affairs bureau in Zurich to check if I'd need a work permit to keep working remotely for my US company that has no offices here (separate from the residence permit I'll receive soon). The bureau said no work permit is needed because my job has nothing to do with the Swiss labor market. Is that accurate? Really hope so because that's what I told my employer!

2. How hard is it arranging ANOBAG? Did your home company in the other country help pay costs, or help with the process?

3. Did you handle ANOBAG on your own or hire a company?

4. If hiring a company, any relatively inexpensive one you could recommend? This is just for one person (me), so I'm hoping to find somewhere that can help figure out the paperwork/arrangements with my employer easily for all of these payments and forms.

Thank you!


1. You are possibly coming to Switzerland as a dependent on a spouse's work-residence permit. You might wish to review in detail the kind of permit that your spouse and you have received.

2. The foreign employer is to pay the employee the employer's share of the Swiss social security contributions, according to the regulations.

3. Some employees handle it themselves and some have an accounting firm (Treuhand) do it.

4. Sent you a pm.

Steve 22.03.2020 09:25

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by HanChenFL (Post 3161410)
Hi all,
A few questions for folks doing ANOBAG:
1. The company handling my residence permit contacted the Econ Affairs bureau in Zurich to check if I'd need a work permit to keep working remotely for my US company that has no offices here (separate from the residence permit I'll receive soon). The bureau said no work permit is needed because my job has nothing to do with the Swiss labor market. Is that accurate? Really hope so because that's what I told my employer!

2. How hard is it arranging ANOBAG? Did your home company in the other country help pay costs, or help with the process?

3. Did you handle ANOBAG on your own or hire a company?

4. If hiring a company, any relatively inexpensive one you could recommend? This is just for one person (me), so I'm hoping to find somewhere that can help figure out the paperwork/arrangements with my employer easily for all of these payments and forms.

Thank you!

We work with several ANOBAG employees with residence permits and their foreign employers do not need work permits on top.

Your employer will pay all costs. You (or your appointed accountant) will be the official point of contact to the Swiss social office who will send you a bill for the AHV insurance, and to whom you will declare your salary (in addition to the tax office). They will also ask you for your accident insurance and professional pension certificates - these are easy to arrange with any Swiss insurer, for example Zürich or AXA Winterthur.

Application for ANOBAG is a simple form signed by you and your employer. (if you have children there is a separate form for child allowance claim). If your employer is in the EU there is an additional EU social form which the Swiss social office will send you.

So you can do it yourself, but if you don't want the hassle of admin and transacting payments this is a routine job for an accountant and should not not be expensive.

MIKER 14.06.2020 20:16

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Hi all,
thanks for the very useful collection of information regarding ANOBAG registration in Switzerland!


I was wondering whether there is a "right order" to apply the different things?
Do I need any special documents to apply for ANOBAG beside the ANOBAG application form (e.g. residence permit)? :msnsarcastic:

Just want to avoid a chicken / egg situation.


Up to now I am planning the following order (I am a EU resident):


1) Residents' registration office -> get residence permit
2) AHV/AVS office -> do ANOBAG registration
3) Insurance company -> Pension Scheme
4) Insurance company -> Accident insurance
5) Tax office -> tax registration



Does anybody has insights how much in advance you should start applying / how long it takes to get the confirmations?


Is there any experience how much the monthly contribution to the pension scheme and accident insurance is?


Thank you very much for your efforts and best
MIKER

Steve 15.06.2020 14:17

Re: ANOBAG - any experiences? Good , bad and the ugl
 
Hi MIKER
In theory you do not have to apply for ANobAG in advance of signing a contract. It is however good practice to do so as you then have proof of cover from the first day - your employer is then no longer responsible if you have an accident or other disabilility. The AHV Office will normally get back with confirmation within a week, and then ask you for a copy of the accident insurance policy, and, if you are an EU/EFTA/UK citizen, a copy of the second pillar pension.
The cost of the accident is typically 1-2% (It is slightly higher for blue collar workers than for office workers).
The minimum cost of the pension is from approximately 8% (at age 25) to 18% above age 55 but depends in detail on the level of insurance cover attached to the pension.
Since I am seeing a lot of ANobAG queries we put up an FAQ at http://www.accurity.ch/anobag-faq/ for anyone with questions about this scheme.


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