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  #41  
Old 23.06.2019, 19:27
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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But, having said this, it seems that this is still the way forward, within an industry that needs to cut cost-centre operating costs i.e. mostly IT, to please management and stakeholders.
Actually the new trend is to simply to buy services and have no responsibility for the process what so ever.

I know of three banks in Switzerland who have recently completely outsourced the calculation of performance and attribution figures. They ship the data to an outsourced service and simply get back the results.
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  #42  
Old 23.06.2019, 21:00
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

In my area, you're hard pushed to find good developers with 2 years or more experience. This is not healthy. It means that companies aren't making as much money as they could be making if they had sane IT policies - by virtue of spending far more money than they need to, in the name of cost cutting. But they make so much anyway, they don't care. I worked for one pharma company, moving one system to a new platform. There was a discrepancy of 15 million francs. It was written off with a comment of - we only really care if it's more than 100 million.

Corollary - companies with smaller profit margins will continue to use onsite, employed developers.
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  #43  
Old 24.06.2019, 15:39
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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Why do companies outsource? For the most part rank stupidity, short-termism and ignorance. Some senior moron thinks it'll save money and everyone else tries to mitigate the damage.
This and a whole bunch of other statements from various folks in this thread.

Give it time. It'll come back. It always does. Of course that costs more money but who cares, the genius who thought it would save money has gotten their bonus for "awesome cost-saving activities" and is off to repeat the same crap elsewhere Story old as time.

We've moved the same so-called services (cough) to Eastern Europe and back, then to another country in Eastern Europe and back again, then to South America and back all in the space of less than 10 years. Now the same stuff goes to India and I'm sure it'll be back in less than 3 years. In between, overpaid employees in the US, Switzerland and a bunch of other countries are losing their minds over wasting hours on end on some stupid process along with by-the-book responses that would be 15 times easier and quicker to manage if it were local. But hey, who cares and why actually consider all the factors...

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The Swiss company my wife works for has been sending dozens and dozens of jobs to Bratislava over the last 3-4 years. It seems great that they in theory or on paper are going to save some money... the reality of it is that workers will work for 6-12 months and demand large unreasonable/unjustified promotions, jump ship to go down the street for 100-200 euros more a month or often times hire in and immediately become pregnant and utilize their 3 years time off with a guaranteed job when they come back.

Same kind of story with the workers in Bangladesh as well. For many of them it will be their first real job in an office setting and at first are eager to work and contribute, many of them later on become very upset when they are not promoted within the first year and cite they now have some ground-breaking 6-12 months of experience... they then leave and go to another international company.
Very important point btw. This is also disastrous for the countries themselves as MNCs will just move on once there's nothing left to exploit (because let's be real, that's what it is). It's sold as an "opportunity" to certain countries when it very much is a recipe for failure due to utter lack of sustainability.

Last edited by Samaire13; 24.06.2019 at 15:51.
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  #44  
Old 24.06.2019, 16:25
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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In my area, you're hard pushed to find good developers with 2 years or more experience. This is not healthy.
What area is this?


I'll just add to the thread in general that our company has outsourced some IT projects to SE Asia, and those guys are awesome. Like seriously awesome, fast, and they'll do everything you ask them to do.
But then, if you don't want to keep working with them, you'll loose 2-3 man years until local people can work with the code, and that's if those local people don't find a better place somewhere else in the middle of that time
Fun fact: They themselves outsource their own local work to other, cheaper neighbours.
Now which countries in the world have higher salaries than Switzerland? Maybe they can outsource some of their work to us!
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  #45  
Old 24.06.2019, 18:11
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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this and a whole bunch of other statements from various folks in this thread.

Give it time. It'll come back. It always does...
That's what I've always felt. Same with decentralisation and centralisation - companies breath in, companies breath out.

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what area is this?
sap abap.
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  #46  
Old 24.06.2019, 23:22
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

This is the mechanics of the modern workplace that are driven by markets demanding more revenue/more profit every year. Novartis is a great example. Profitable, many valuable patents in the pipeline yet outsourcing.

One of my friends has been in the same multi national for years. He started there straight out of uni and was surrounded by experienced guys. Now he is the only experienced guy and surrounded by kiddos straight out of uni.

I notice with the current Swiss job market, there's 2 main types of ads, maximum 2 years experience or minimum 10 with unattainable side requirements. Maybe some will disagree but my interpretation of this is we will take cheap staff, we will pay for key roles if we can find the best, everything else we will do in a cheaper place.
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  #47  
Old 25.06.2019, 08:13
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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What area is this?


I'll just add to the thread in general that our company has outsourced some IT projects to SE Asia, and those guys are awesome. Like seriously awesome, fast, and they'll do everything you ask them to do.
But then, if you don't want to keep working with them, you'll loose 2-3 man years until local people can work with the code, and that's if those local people don't find a better place somewhere else in the middle of that time
Fun fact: They themselves outsource their own local work to other, cheaper neighbours.
Now which countries in the world have higher salaries than Switzerland? Maybe they can outsource some of their work to us!
Maybe some of these

– Kineto Tech Rehab,
– NextGen Software,
– Oveit,
– Soft Galaxy,
– Tremend,
– UiPath,
– Zitec.

They're all Romanian IT companies that will extend their activity in the USA.

UiPath, does it tell anything to you? It's one of the hottest shit back home. And they already extended. Zitec too.
Watch us out. We're coming.
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  #48  
Old 25.06.2019, 09:35
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

I've worked in an off-shore place and co-worked with engineers from such ones (writing software for products, not for same company business processes).

I think a hard to quantify loss with any outsourcing is missing opportunity for real innovation and creating new, "non-linear" value, beyond making products to specs laid out in HQ. There is a lot of ingenuity that is left untapped. Some companies have their own offshore centres but there is is a lot of inefficiency and top-down structure.
I a short term perspective this works fine, but in the longer term what really matters for a company is the real, high value innovation. The alternative is being sidelined into a low price, low margin, ultra competitive commodity.
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  #49  
Old 25.06.2019, 14:00
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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This is the mechanics of the modern workplace that are driven by markets demanding more revenue/more profit every year.
I think it is more driven by the latest management fad … which in turn is thought up by some famous nitwit to improve revenue.

Like open offices with cubicles is a fad. Same with outsourcing. Google style interview questions. Only wanting young inexperienced people.
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Old 25.06.2019, 14:22
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Fads are just marketing techique to justify general cost reduction. It is not real innovation. You fire leadership, get a new set to sell some management fad, which proves completely innefficient after 3-4 years, so you fire them in order to hire another set of leadership folks (pay them less, or fewer of them or no package, whatever suits), who bring another faulty-by-design new fad. Open space office have proven completely unconstructive, productivity wise (it reduces attention, people get distracted and feel constantly sourveilled). Outsourcing has proven no sense of team or team loyalty.

The thing is, if people are destined to be fired, the pretext does not matter. Loads of jobs moved to EE, but are moving further East and South now. We will see it move back soon again. What I don't like is this is still being used as talent scouting and people being moved out of the poor countries that invested in quality and free edu without seeing the return. They move away with the companies. The home countries should take care of their graduates better. And, the world should stop caving in the "globalization" mantra and invest in the local skills and intellectual potential.

But then, it seems that a lot of posters were brought here, too. And now their jobs are going where the cost is lower. At some point some companies will prioritize long term development over instant gain, I'd hope.
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  #51  
Old 25.06.2019, 14:35
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

I'm afraid business in a larger sense is a bit more complicated than that. To me it seems we're going through the same phase where we have already been before, when manufacturing companies were moving their production to China. It hurt a lot of people too, but it happened. Is anyone imagining we're going back in time?
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Old 25.06.2019, 14:56
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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I'm afraid business in a larger sense is a bit more complicated than that. To me it seems we're going through the same phase where we have already been before, when manufacturing companies were moving their production to China. It hurt a lot of people too, but it happened. Is anyone imagining we're going back in time?
Yes, absolutely I'm imagining that we're "going back in time".

History will always continue to repeat itself here. Because at the end of the day, it's not learning from past mistakes (such as the Climate Emergency) where scientific papers prove the issue over decades, and the World population can attempt to exert some pressure on their futures.

But this issue is based purely and simply on the greed and wanted financial gain of larger corporations (CEOs that last a maximum of a few short years) who will do whatever they can to cut costs within their tenancy. Sets-up their life with several millions in the account over a short period.

Covering the Corporations reputational risk is then only used to placate, not change (or if, in the cheapest but risk-free way possible), the damage they exert on society.

When things boil down to basic human nature only, then nothing can possibly change.
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Old 25.06.2019, 15:04
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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Yes, absolutely I'm imagining that we're "going back in time".
.
I meant way back in time, when everything was better...

As long as we're driven by growth and consumption, nothing is going to change. Yes, you said it very well: it boils down to human nature.
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Old 25.06.2019, 15:16
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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I meant way back in time, when everything was better...

As long as we're driven by growth and consumption, nothing is going to change.
Which period are you thinking of then - the last financial crash of 10 years ago?

In this time nothing has changed. All the paremeters such as Corporate debt, US student debt (unbelievable proportions that cannot be realised), the election of Trump and, for crying out loud, potentially his wannabe UK twin Boris have not yet been mobilised.

Despite the warnings that a new crash is pending, nothing has been done to eliminate this Casino economy.
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Old 25.06.2019, 16:14
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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Which period are you thinking of then - the last financial crash of 10 years ago?

In this time nothing has changed. All the paremeters such as Corporate debt, US student debt (unbelievable proportions that cannot be realised), the election of Trump and, for crying out loud, potentially his wannabe UK twin Boris have not yet been mobilised.

Despite the warnings that a new crash is pending, nothing has been done to eliminate this Casino economy.
Correct. And yes, as you say, it's because humans never learn.

For everyone with a cynical (or is it realistic??) streak (and with some interest in history), read this: https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/40858227-humans
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Old 25.06.2019, 17:39
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

My husband has worked many years in a fairly small family run/owned finance company - it has been around for over 100 years. Today they were called into a meeting where they announced it will no longer be “family run, but just family owned”. Consultants that will help with this transition, then proceeded to give a presentation announcing different options for outsourcing.

Seriously eff it all to hell...I guess it’s time to seriously start considering opening up that pulled pork bbq food truck we always thought of doing as a last result.
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Old 25.06.2019, 17:57
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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My husband has worked many years in a fairly small family run/owned finance company - it has been around for over 100 years. Today they were called into a meeting where they announced it will no longer be “family run, but just family owned”. Consultants that will help with this transition, then proceeded to give a presentation announcing different options for outsourcing.

Seriously eff it all to hell...I guess it’s time to seriously start considering opening up that pulled pork bbq food truck we always thought of doing as a last result.
Not a good idea - the future is vegetarian
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Old 25.06.2019, 18:01
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

That's really terrible. I honestly don't like this trend. Not only it destroys job security and undervalues local experts but makes professional efforts so transitional and wasted.

I used to work for a person who only hired capable, competent and super loyal people who would never leave him (mostly single moms), I guess that never happens anymore when we are asked to become partners in global enterpreneurship and world citizens. Meh. It is like we have to foot now the owner's risk for opening their own business or running it poorly, since that is what consultancy stands for, no?

I also dislike post offices being closed and books being tossed for the perks of sms-ing, online payments and ebooks. But that's another rant.

I would be a loyal customer of a local pulled pork sammich food truck, Suzzie.
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Old 25.06.2019, 19:53
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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My husband has worked many years in a fairly small family run/owned finance company - it has been around for over 100 years. Today they were called into a meeting where they announced it will no longer be “family run, but just family owned”. Consultants that will help with this transition, then proceeded to give a presentation announcing different options for outsourcing.
Well I mean as long as there's a consultant

Seriously though, been working in big corporate for 10+ years now and every time they throw another outsourcing idea at me, I just yawn and tell them good luck. And then I wait. And more often than not, I've seen phased outsourcing or offshoring plans be abandoned about halfway through as whatever they already moved was already an utter disaster, so they moved it back and stopped the rest, fired the person in charge, hired another one and voilà, cycle starts all over again. It's ridiculous.

That said, there's no denying it can create uncertainty and anxiety in people and no, companies don't help themselves by constantly creating instability and even fear this way. Of course only to then complain that people are no longer loyal. Well sweeties, loyalty is a two-way street, but that's a message that doesn't seem to sink in.

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Vegan! Vegetarian is like so 1995.
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Old 25.06.2019, 20:14
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Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

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Well I mean as long as there's a consultant

Seriously though, been working in big corporate for 10+ years now and every time they throw another outsourcing idea at me, I just yawn and tell them good luck. And then I wait. And more often than not, I've seen phased outsourcing or offshoring plans be abandoned about halfway through as whatever they already moved was already an utter disaster, so they moved it back and stopped the rest, fired the person in charge, hired another one and voilà, cycle starts all over again. It's ridiculous.

That said, there's no denying it can create uncertainty and anxiety in people and no, companies don't help themselves by constantly creating instability and even fear this way. Of course only to then complain that people are no longer loyal. Well sweeties, loyalty is a two-way street, but that's a message that doesn't seem to sink in.



Vegan! Vegetarian is like so 1995.
Yeah, that about fits in since when I stoped eating meat. I'm cool on happy chickens for my eggs, happy cows for my milk, and fish that I pay extortionate amounts for knowing where exactly they've come from.

Get pretty fed-up actually with general understanding being that vegetarian means vegan. I used to also still cook beef etc. for my daughter. She's old enough that if she want's it then she should cook it herself - no problem with that, and she needs to keep-up those particular vitamins during her growth.

Strangely enough, she has problems digesting a good piece of steak...
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