Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #61  
Old 25.06.2019, 22:14
NotAllThere's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Baselland
Posts: 11,263
Groaned at 170 Times in 147 Posts
Thanked 16,017 Times in 6,506 Posts
NotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond reputeNotAllThere has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

If it's any reassurance, it's McKinsey who've been advising the British government over Brexit...

This reorgs/outsourcing etc. is crap that's been going on for the entire 30 years of my career. This from 1993. If you can find a full version, it's worth a read. The basic premise is that a new fad comes every 5 years or so. First 5 years, it's promoted by the guru idiot who came up with it. Next 5 years, consultancies promote it. Next 5 years it's "the thing to do". Next 5 years it's in decline, but by then you're approaching year 6 of the next fad.

Or simpl<, the politician's fallacy.

"This is terrible, we must do something".
"This is something".
"Let's do it!".

15 years to go until retirement and counting...
__________________
Boomers tend to believe in “freedom of speech”, which is a fascist concept used to spread hateful ideas.Given that hate speech is not possible without free speech, any defence of free speech is a form of hate speech. - Titania McGrath
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 25.06.2019, 22:46
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,064
Groaned at 98 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 6,574 Times in 2,509 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
If it's any reassurance, it's McKinsey who've been advising the British government over Brexit...
Lol jep, certainly speaks for McK given how well that's going. They also advised Swissair on a hunter strategy which led to its grounding/bankruptcy. On a smaller scale I'm sure almost anyone ever involved in some McK project has great stories to tell
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 25.06.2019, 23:19
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 13,298
Groaned at 199 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 15,599 Times in 7,944 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
Well I mean as long as there's a consultant

Seriously though, been working in big corporate for 10+ years now and every time they throw another outsourcing idea at me, I just yawn and tell them good luck. And then I wait. And more often than not, I've seen phased outsourcing or offshoring plans be abandoned about halfway through as whatever they already moved was already an utter disaster, so they moved it back and stopped the rest, fired the person in charge, hired another one and voilà, cycle starts all over again. It's ridiculous.

That said, there's no denying it can create uncertainty and anxiety in people and no, companies don't help themselves by constantly creating instability and even fear this way. Of course only to then complain that people are no longer loyal. Well sweeties, loyalty is a two-way street, but that's a message that doesn't seem to sink in.
Yep. But it does sink in when the boat sinks. Or maybe a few years after, since the wrong managerial steps done long ago aren't always so obvious, when there aren't even consultants around to point them out.



Quote:
Vegan! Vegetarian is like so 1995.
Mais non, vegan is so 2000. Or maybe here it isn't.

The new trend is city urban foraging. Although that's been also going on for a few years already too.

Zuri, I also never befriended steaks but I don't like the chewing part, tbh.
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 26.06.2019, 11:49
parkadam's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 383
Groaned at 17 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 288 Times in 126 Posts
parkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
Hello,

I work in pharma. I just started in a new company where most work that is not completed by VP’s/Directors is outsourced to India. This includes project managers, market research, communications, publications and even administrative assistants.

I know things have steadily been moving in that direction for years, but now it looks like it will be nothing but senior directors/or higher left in corporations Switzerland before long. Novartis recently announced that some directors will be moved to East Europe. What are us plebs to do?

Hi Susie Q,


Alot of this is driven by cost-consolidation from Agency perspective. Allow me to expand.


Already we in pharma contract alot of our work to external agencies, you may have a central Publications Manager for example who will then outsource medical writing to an external agency, usually UK or US based - English competency and well that's where the good agencies are. Med Comms does the same and the work is usually content generation. Hardly you find a Pubs Manager or Medical Directors/Marketing doing the work, they are basically Project Managers/Coordinators/Budget Admistrations - delivering their tactics with major support of Agencies. If I look at my cross-functional teams, medical, market access/pricing, marketing, clin dev, right, we are the Core team and our direct tactical delveries are outsourced for agency work.


And that's what Corporate will look like internally right? Now you say NOVARTIS. They have outsourced alot of their contracted AGENCY work, not necessarily outsoursed but they've tried to make thier "own internal agency". So it's like bing in the company but you're working like an agency and these folks - more content generators - are based in India or where ever. Be it pubs, market research, what ever, even project management, ..so instead of going to a "external" UK agency and pay GBP, you to to "internal agency" ..make sense?


Here's the problem, you may appear to have lower costs but there is not much savings when it comes to QUALITY. With the amount of revisions you need to do because of poor quality, then i don't think you realize the cost savings.


Small example, in one of my prior jobs, we contracted out alot of work to an agency in India. My predecesors were on a cost-containment path - so they went with one of these - and alot of work prior done by internals were put into the agency (it was not internal). I came on board and guess what...after 4 months I had to fire the agency due to poor quality, resulting in budget spend that close to hiring a good UK agnecy. Not to bash anybody but one of my issues for example was English. I remember telling the agency that "Indian English" is NOT UK or US english and I expected the writing style and languate to be consistent with US and/or UK - NOT Negotiable. Just a tiny example, I expected good writing and I spend most of my time editing and re-writing, that was unacceptable and distracting - and I didn't have time to coach a damn agency.


Not to glorify UK or US agencies, they have crap content generators/writers too..but at leeast I can get less rounds of reviews and Quality wiht high risk for good work.


So - take aways..some of them outsourced work..not good, watch it, keep a record so when you make an arguement to go to an external agency, and not internal agency, and you request budget you have solid examples.


Learn project managment and coordination, its what we are mainly donint in HQ, it become less if your rise in managment but depends on function. I'm in on of those functions where I have alot of tactics I'm responsbily for where I use agencies, so alot of my time is spent managing that, but i'm also doing strategic/operational stuff across diverse functions..so when, like me you're getting pulled left and right ....you need external agencies (or internal) you can trust. These company's today think they can save money but they're not putting the right KPIs in place to make that assessment. Some Finance guy probably doesn't want to hear the truth and most of us and gone anyways after 2 or 3 years in the job so legacy of non-savings is gone.


Good luck!!
__________________
Long Islander and New Yorker (Upper East Sider in the House!) living in Kanton Aargau.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank parkadam for this useful post:
  #65  
Old 26.06.2019, 12:49
Samaire13's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: CH
Posts: 4,064
Groaned at 98 Times in 81 Posts
Thanked 6,574 Times in 2,509 Posts
Samaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond reputeSamaire13 has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
Yep. But it does sink in when the boat sinks. Or maybe a few years after, since the wrong managerial steps done long ago aren't always so obvious, when there aren't even consultants around to point them out.
The obsession with asking some consultant or other is the cause of the issue. Few will point out how ridiculous a company's ideas are, let alone how ridiculous their own are of course. After all, the creation of 150 slides on some unrealistic project is how they make their money. I'm not saying their all bad of course, and I guess there's at least some movement towards bringing in more people into consulting who at least have had some experience in corporate as opposed to their usual m.o. where some 23-year old grad with zero experience is suddenly supposed to tell an MNC how to do business. But at least my company seems to value a consultant's opinion much more than that of its own employees, even though there's a good chance the latter know better, given they actually have to work in that particular context, whereas a consultant will never have to.

The problem as always is a pure focus on short-term financial savings which never incorporates the decrease in quality, decrease in accountability (which often isn't high to begin with) and the increase in complexity of processes. I could give countless examples where I spent two days resolving some issue that could have been resolved in literally 5 minutes if I didn't have to go through fifteen service centers across 3 countries. I think we all have such stories.

Nothing will change as long as companies don't understand that short-term focus is doing more damage than anything else, don't understand that actual savings are more complex than just looking at a couple of dollar bills, and fail to measure and reward long-term success. I'm sure they understand that intellectually, but why would they do anything different given this is the very way they themselves have taken in their career. It needs significant, painful disruption and almost all of it at the leadership level for all that to change.
Reply With Quote
The following 5 users would like to thank Samaire13 for this useful post:
  #66  
Old 26.06.2019, 13:35
parkadam's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 383
Groaned at 17 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 288 Times in 126 Posts
parkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
The obsession with asking some consultant or other is the cause of the issue. Few will point out how ridiculous a company's ideas are, let alone how ridiculous their own are of course. After all, the creation of 150 slides on some unrealistic project is how they make their money. I'm not saying their all bad of course, and I guess there's at least some movement towards bringing in more people into consulting who at least have had some experience in corporate as opposed to their usual m.o. where some 23-year old grad with zero experience is suddenly supposed to tell an MNC how to do business. But at least my company seems to value a consultant's opinion much more than that of its own employees, even though there's a good chance the latter know better, given they actually have to work in that particular context, whereas a consultant will never have to.

The problem as always is a pure focus on short-term financial savings which never incorporates the decrease in quality, decrease in accountability (which often isn't high to begin with) and the increase in complexity of processes. I could give countless examples where I spent two days resolving some issue that could have been resolved in literally 5 minutes if I didn't have to go through fifteen service centers across 3 countries. I think we all have such stories.

Nothing will change as long as companies don't understand that short-term focus is doing more damage than anything else, don't understand that actual savings are more complex than just looking at a couple of dollar bills, and fail to measure and reward long-term success. I'm sure they understand that intellectually, but why would they do anything different given this is the very way they themselves have taken in their career. It needs significant, painful disruption and almost all of it at the leadership level for all that to change.


Yes..and No. First, let me qualify, I've been in alot of companys. I've been on varied governance teams, functional teams, cross-functional teams and both drive and contriubute to strategy - at times Franchise and I've been lucky to have had an experince to contibute to a corporate strategy(!).


Consultants. Your Mcks, Bostons, LEKs - They are politcal tools first and foremost OK? Management wants to move an agenda - they don't need to listen to fellow employees - they bring a consultant who will then exactly parrot what employees say (no genius work here), just re buffed and cleaned into an interpretation that drives an agenda. I"m guilty of doing it - had a team of folks that were not aligning to me, got an external consultant, moved my agenda nicely. That's the way we work. The solution is in fact in the room, management just needs validation for their agenda and you do that by "consultants" - I'm fully guilty as charged.


Long-term focus - look, anything beyond 3 years planning horizon is a fairy-tale. Figment of imangination at best. Reality, hard to look down the time-frame of 1 year and even then - not a preditor of any stability. Have 1Quarter where company doesn't perform, watch how fact budget cuts and head count cuts come. ..why..cause Wall-Street flips view day to to day. Can't really planfor long term - because even management changes!


And what happens here is new management will come in, victimize legacy managment and.or legacy folk (and legacy folk can be only in the company a year!!) and move agendas..i.e bring in the clowns (your external consultants).


Now - back to outsourcing, someone takes the decsion to do that and well it continues. Hell in one company we outsource tactical operations of most functions with one corporate person (me, or cross-fuctional colleagues to manage them). It was like having direct reports...on the agency side as though they were an FTE (client - vendor relationship was more boss-subordinate relationship). And these agencies, I call em agecies but we're taking big names, like accenture.


So how to handle, Ignore management - even though I'm contributing withing my functional expertise - my job is to serve the company within the capacity I can .above all..while i serve my individual short-term, career solidifying, competitiveness fullfiling needs - there is no stablity in corporate ...so only stability here ..is have exit plans in place. Be ready to jump and dont' get into gossip and BS when managment or organaization changes are happing...i watch out for myself first..and watch all the other say 80 percent of people engage in pity parties. They cry when they get fired. ...i ..have my next offer letter and thank HR for the nice package and paid vacation until my next start date.
__________________
Long Islander and New Yorker (Upper East Sider in the House!) living in Kanton Aargau.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank parkadam for this useful post:
  #67  
Old 26.06.2019, 15:35
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Küsnacht, Switzerland
Posts: 4,198
Groaned at 89 Times in 83 Posts
Thanked 8,857 Times in 4,054 Posts
Blueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond reputeBlueangel has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
So how to handle, Ignore management - even though I'm contributing withing my functional expertise - my job is to serve the company within the capacity I can .above all..while i serve my individual short-term, career solidifying, competitiveness fullfiling needs - there is no stablity in corporate ...so only stability here ..is have exit plans in place. Be ready to jump and dont' get into gossip and BS when managment or organaization changes are happing...i watch out for myself first..and watch all the other say 80 percent of people engage in pity parties. They cry when they get fired. ...i ..have my next offer letter and thank HR for the nice package and paid vacation until my next start date.
Having advised colleagues through several redundancy / restructuring procedures, though only being made redundant myself once, I couldn't agree more with your post. Engaging in the BS and gossip is hugely counterproductive on a business, professional, personal and sanity level. The 'pity party people' are an absolute nightmare to deal with and to be around, and often turn out to be the most self-serving and vindictive. They're emotional vampires who will trample on anyone. I've seen that behaviour time and time again. Most importantly, your contract is with the employer...no one else. The trick is to view the situation as an opportunity, and to push a few doors that you might not have thought were open to you.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank Blueangel for this useful post:
  #68  
Old 26.06.2019, 17:29
MusicChick's Avatar
modified, reprogrammed and doctored
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: La Cote
Posts: 13,298
Groaned at 199 Times in 156 Posts
Thanked 15,599 Times in 7,944 Posts
MusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond reputeMusicChick has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Maybe people count on stability that has long gone. We can waste energy imagining why it should be there, and we would be so right. Does it make people more employable in the current climate? Not at all. Parkadam, you went out of your way to give honesty and strategies, not illusions nor dreams. Well done.

Plus, love your typos.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank MusicChick for this useful post:
  #69  
Old 27.06.2019, 00:37
FunnyBone's Avatar
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Earth
Posts: 790
Groaned at 35 Times in 25 Posts
Thanked 1,109 Times in 502 Posts
FunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond reputeFunnyBone has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
Hi Susie Q,

...

Not to bash anybody but one of my issues for example was English. I remember telling the agency that "Indian English" is NOT UK or US english and I expected the writing style and languate to be consistent with US and/or UK - NOT Negotiable. Just a tiny example, I expected good writing and I spend most of my time editing and re-writing, that was unacceptable and distracting - and I didn't have time to coach a damn agency.

...
The title should say "pronounce" instead of "spell", but then again...

Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 27.06.2019, 12:08
parkadam's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Zurich
Posts: 383
Groaned at 17 Times in 9 Posts
Thanked 288 Times in 126 Posts
parkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond reputeparkadam has a reputation beyond repute
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Quote:
View Post
Maybe people count on stability that has long gone. We can waste energy imagining why it should be there, and we would be so right. Does it make people more employable in the current climate? Not at all. Parkadam, you went out of your way to give honesty and strategies, not illusions nor dreams. Well done.

Plus, love your typos.




I know my Typos! I have French Key board (don't ask) letters are not aligned to how I type when moving fast. For work I have spelling checks and actually pay more attention



o to your point beyond paycheck, I don't know what attracts people to corporate anymore - especially our younger generation. At somepoint, I do want to call out more on bad corporate behavior which is the reality and I do think corporate environments in the long-term are killers to entreprenural spirits and those who believe in merit. Now I do think pharma is special in that there is a quantifable societal benefit, lets face it, drug development is a commerical process, end of story. So in addition to paycheck, I do have a reason to wake up in the morning job wise, and that's no lie.


However the politics, the lack of stablity, lack of loyalty and more and more treated as a number well...yuck.


Pundits never ever talk about the stuff I mentioned, mostly this stuff is relagated to Comedians who have been in corporate. Academics who profess to know all about Organizatioal Behavior are nothing more than Academics who I think contribute to nothing.


For example I was part of a program run by St. Gallen U Business School - and these "professors" preaching to me on management priciples..seriously? I wanted to puke. When they've never delivered a project in corprate, truely worked in a cross-functional team and tried to actually work with people - they'd be dystroyed in a moment, chewn up and spitted out. And they want to press on their analysis and "research" and tell me how to manage. Yup, uh huh.



Nobody talks about the cost of politics to a business or ever studies it - it's just not measured. And that goes back to the outsourcing, political to even question why and if savings would actually be realized. We're all to busy keeping our heads down (at least I hope, that's the only response) - we find our own stablity right? I gotta pay bills. And another issue - nobody talks Salary or desire to make more money! Entrerpreunues..they talk about this stuff..openly, loudly - it's refreshing! I konw alot of people in corporate, my age, mid fortys, just walking away..purusig their down business, going back to school...they're out.





__________________
Long Islander and New Yorker (Upper East Sider in the House!) living in Kanton Aargau.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank parkadam for this useful post:
  #71  
Old 29.06.2019, 16:15
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Kanton ZH
Posts: 198
Groaned at 56 Times in 31 Posts
Thanked 243 Times in 106 Posts
Susie-Q is considered knowledgeableSusie-Q is considered knowledgeableSusie-Q is considered knowledgeable
Re: What’s with all the outsourcing?

Read this this morning - perfect example of a total failure due to outsourcing:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...hour-engineers
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Susie-Q for this useful post:
This user groans at Susie-Q for this post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What to do with all the Euro coins? Nina123 Finance/banking/taxation 16 28.11.2017 10:47
The What-To-Do-With-All-This-Zucchini Thread meloncollie Food and drink 50 12.08.2013 12:58
What's up with all the German Schlager songs about Italian women? Roestigraben Daily life 22 25.11.2012 22:17
What's with all the noise in Basel tonight? rob1 Daily life 11 14.10.2012 10:54
What's with all the Pizzerias in Geneva? Nickyboy Entertainment & dining 15 09.09.2008 17:49


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 12:05.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0