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Old 28.08.2019, 20:03
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Quit or get fired

Hello everyone,

I am in a very difficult situation. For a year I am hired by a company based in Zurich (permanent contract) and I work as an external engineer in one of their clients (contract for 16 months).

During the last months, my manager in the client company changed and with the new we really can't find anything in common and work together. He is constantly unsatisfied with everything and even when we discuss he has a very bad behavior. The last months are miserable and I really don't want to go to work, due to high stress and fear. A week ago, I began to visit a specialist (doctor).

I started thinking the possibility of being fired and that was when I thought of resigning first to avoid being fired and get rid of this situation in general. I am 26 and it is my first job, so I don't want to destroy my career and mental health.

My question is, what is better? I know that in RAV possibly I will not receive money before 2 or 3 months if I quit. But how can being fired impact my career?

Also who is responsible of writing my reference letter, the company who hired me or their client?

Thanks
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Old 28.08.2019, 20:14
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Hello everyone,

I am in a very difficult situation. For a year I am hired by a company based in Zurich (permanent contract) and I work as an external engineer in one of their clients (contract for 16 months).

During the last months, my manager in the client company changed and with the new we really can't find anything in common and work together. He is constantly unsatisfied with everything and even when we discuss he has a very bad behavior. The last months are miserable and I really don't want to go to work, due to high stress and fear. A week ago, I began to visit a specialist (doctor).

I started thinking the possibility of being fired and that was when I thought of resigning first to avoid being fired and get rid of this situation in general. I am 26 and it is my first job, so I don't want to destroy my career and mental health.

My question is, what is better? I know that in RAV possibly I will not receive money before 2 or 3 months if I quit. But how can being fired impact my career?

Also who is responsible of writing my reference letter, the company who hired me or their client?

Thanks

The person who employs you writes the letter but it seems you may get on better with the client directly....maybe have a quiet chat with them, they too may not be happy with your employer


Otherwise, for you to claim RAV, it is better to be fired than quit.
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Old 28.08.2019, 20:20
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Re: Quit or get fired

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My question is, what is better? I know that in RAV possibly I will not receive money before 2 or 3 months if I quit. But how can being fired impact my career?
Being fired these days is noting special, if your employer's client no longer has a need for you and cancels their contract with your employer, the you were let go due to the economic situation, big deal it happens..

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Also who is responsible of writing my reference letter, the company who hired me or their client?
Your employer, not the client is responsible for your reference letter. However as it is not normal to get reference letters as a contractor, it will most likely be just a statement of employment.

I would not worry about it, it is the normal situation for a contractor, your let go when you are no longer needed and you only have a statement of employment. No one is going to question it. I've been doing it for 30 years.
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Old 28.08.2019, 21:00
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Your employer, not the client is responsible for your reference letter. However as it is not normal to get reference letters as a contractor, it will most likely be just a statement of employment.


A contractor friend of mine asked for a reference and it was entirely written by the client into a procurement system. His last manager for whom he had only worked for a few months wrote it despite having had worked for the client for many years. The actual "employer" didn't want to write anything.
When the RAV got involved there was quite a lot of to-and-fro with the reference.

Last edited by roegner; 28.08.2019 at 21:02. Reason: Fixed quote
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Old 28.08.2019, 21:05
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Re: Quit or get fired

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A contractor friend of mine asked for a reference and it was entirely written by the client into a procurement system. His last manager for whom he had only worked for a few months wrote it despite having had worked for the client for many years. The actual "employer" didn't want to write anything.
When the RAV got involved there was quite a lot of to-and-fro with the reference.
If they give you one great...
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Old 28.08.2019, 21:59
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Being fired these days is noting special, if your employer's client no longer has a need for you and cancels their contract with your employer, the you were let go due to the economic situation, big deal it happens..



Your employer, not the client is responsible for your reference letter. However as it is not normal to get reference letters as a contractor, it will most likely be just a statement of employment.

I would not worry about it, it is the normal situation for a contractor, your let go when you are no longer needed and you only have a statement of employment. No one is going to question it. I've been doing it for 30 years.

Ok. So probably I could wait until I have no more patience. One more thing, do you know if the contractor lets you go, your employer is supposed to find you another project, right? Or do they fire you as well?
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Old 28.08.2019, 22:21
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Ok. So probably I could wait until I have no more patience. One more thing, do you know if the contractor lets you go, your employer is supposed to find you another project, right? Or do they fire you as well?

Depends what you contract says
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Old 28.08.2019, 22:26
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Re: Quit or get fired

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One more thing, do you know if the contractor lets you go, your employer is supposed to find you another project, right? Or do they fire you as well?

You're the contractor. If you're paid by the hour then the employer will drop you as quickly as they can to coincide with the end-date of the contract with the client.. This is likely to be the case, however there have been occasions where the employer forgets to give notice...
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Old 28.08.2019, 22:34
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Re: Quit or get fired

OP, working in a place where you are unhappy is a strain! But as a general principal in life (though there are exceptions), don't resign before you have another signed job contract.

A few months ago I wrote to someone else who was in a very stressful work situation:
".. if you are in any way unwell, don't resign.
If you are in any way unwell, don't resign.
Don't resign.

If your health is jeopardised, then go to see a doctor
"

Good that you've already taken that step.
Does the doctor think that you are too sick to work? Or is that a doctor who will try to help you develop strategies to cope better at work?

If your health is poor, then "get official sick-leave with a doctor's certificate. The doctor does not have to specify any reason, but must state the date until which you are unable to work, and you must make sure your employer gets the certificate (but keep a copy for yourself, for your file, which you'll build from now). During the time that you are on sick-leave your employer's insurance will pay your salary, or a large part thereof.

Many doctors will, to start with, issue only a week or maybe two weeks' sick-leave, especially if they do not already know the patient well. This does not necessarily mean the doctor doesn't believe what you say or take you seriously. It is just not common practice to book anyone off sick for a long time, right from the start. A responsible doctor will want to see you again soon, anyway, to see how you are doing, and help decide on what kinds of treatment might be beneficial. And then he/she may give you a further doctor's certificate for another week or two, and so on.
"

I agree with what the others have said: Your employer is the agency, and so the conditions of that contract apply.

If the employer wants to end the contract, they can, at any time without a reason, as long as they/you fulfil the notice period correctly. You have the same liberty, but I don't recommend that you do resign. Rather try to find ways to make this job workable, or - if you are too ill - get a doctor's certificate giving you sick-leave.

If anyone writes a reference at all, it should be the agency. However, you are always free to ask anyone to write you a collegial reference, e.g. the former manager with whom you worked well, or a team-colleague who appreciated your work. They can do so in their own name, not on the company's letterhead. Then you at least have the professional assessment of someone who liked your work.

If you ask someone for a reference, it can be a good idea for you to draft the outline (your full name, age, ID-number, the date you started work, the type of project, your role, the tasks you performed, etc.) which will save the other person some work, and they can add anything they wish to. However, make sure that you do not contravene any secrecy agreements.
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Old 28.08.2019, 23:18
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Re: Quit or get fired

If I read the OP correctly, it is the manager at the client company that is at the heart of the problem.

While the employer / body shop he or she works for is responsible for writing the reference, in the past I have also sought a reference from the client whenever I have worked in such a relationship. Perhaps it is just this individual manager the OP does not get along with and there are others in the client's team with whom they have a better relationship.

Avenues I would try (as well as looking for a new job) would be:
- Discuss the issues with the actual employer - perhaps the client's manager's reputation goes before them and perhaps the employer can raise this higher up at the client
- Discuss the issues with the manager's boss if they are sufficiently on-side.

Rgds,
Nick

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The person who employs you writes the letter but it seems you may get on better with the client directly....maybe have a quiet chat with them, they too may not be happy with your employer


Otherwise, for you to claim RAV, it is better to be fired than quit.
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Old 28.08.2019, 23:24
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Re: Quit or get fired

I recently found out that in Switzerland it's common practice to use "code words" in reference letters.

When attempting to hire someone from the UK (where it's normal to give a reference letter that states the employment period, rank and very little else) - my colleague who ho was co-interviewing said something on the lines of "why is this reference so bad?".


I found this on google : https://www.roberthalf.ch/en/news-in...work-reference

but if you speak german there are some more detailed ones online.


e.g.

Mr X has performed his duties to our satisfaction = BAD
Mr X has performed his duties to our complete satisfaction = GOOD
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Old 29.08.2019, 09:31
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Re: Quit or get fired

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From that link:
"Manager Magazine gave the same work reference to three human resources managers and a human resources consultant. The result: their opinion ranged between “very good” and “catastrophe”. Very large companies also even sometimes have their own reference language"
So in short nobody knows how a reference will be interpreted.
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Old 29.08.2019, 09:36
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Re: Quit or get fired

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If I read the OP correctly, it is the manager at the client company that is at the heart of the problem.

While the employer / body shop he or she works for is responsible for writing the reference, in the past I have also sought a reference from the client whenever I have worked in such a relationship. Perhaps it is just this individual manager the OP does not get along with and there are others in the client's team with whom they have a better relationship.

Avenues I would try (as well as looking for a new job) would be:
- Discuss the issues with the actual employer - perhaps the client's manager's reputation goes before them and perhaps the employer can raise this higher up at the client
- Discuss the issues with the manager's boss if they are sufficiently on-side.

Rgds,
Nick
Exactly, the problem is the manager at the client. With my employer everything is fine until now. I already told him about the problem and that I would like to leave.
I dont want to resign, but working in the current position is really hard. Do you know what happens in this situation? Do companies like the one I am hired, find you new jobs if you are in a situation like this?
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Old 29.08.2019, 12:19
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Re: Quit or get fired

If your 26 and the job is doing this to you, quit.

Sure the chomage office will hold it against you, but you can show them evidence that it was destroying your health and they may not.

Worst case they withhold payment for a month or two, every decision is based on individual cases. You'll survive.

You'll quickly find something else better I am sure. No job is worth destroying your health, you only live once.
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Old 29.08.2019, 12:36
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Re: Quit or get fired

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I recently found out that in Switzerland it's common practice to use "code words" in reference letters.

When attempting to hire someone from the UK (where it's normal to give a reference letter that states the employment period, rank and very little else) - my colleague who ho was co-interviewing said something on the lines of "why is this reference so bad?".


I found this on google : https://www.roberthalf.ch/en/news-in...work-reference

but if you speak german there are some more detailed ones online.


e.g.

Mr X has performed his duties to our satisfaction = BAD
Mr X has performed his duties to our complete satisfaction = GOOD
Mr X has Always performed his duties to our fullest satisfaction = good missing out always & fullest are negative, full satisfaction is not the best. German translation to English is never perfect so not sure complete is correct
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Old 29.08.2019, 15:03
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Re: Quit or get fired

1.
When I was under extreme employment pressure, I had difficulty sleeping, had a lot of general anxiety, I dreaded going into the office and found it difficult to make normal daily decisions.

I told my doctor this and was immediately signed off work due to stress, for several weeks.

2.
Your mental health is more important than your career and/or your financial health.

3.
References have to be agreed. If code words are used (and there's quite a lot debate about the universality of this), then insist on a change of wording, or don't agree. (Many threads on this subject).

4.
Talk to your actual employer. It is is not in their interests to have an unhappy client manager. They may be able to put you on another project and send someone else to the current client. They may let you go.

5.
Do not resign.
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Old 29.08.2019, 15:14
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Worst case they withhold payment for a month or two, every decision is based on individual cases. You'll survive.
Or four, and maybe he won't survive.

Tom
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Old 29.08.2019, 23:00
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Re: Quit or get fired

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Exactly, the problem is the manager at the client. With my employer everything is fine until now. I already told him about the problem and that I would like to leave.
I dont want to resign, but working in the current position is really hard. Do you know what happens in this situation? Do companies like the one I am hired, find you new jobs if you are in a situation like this?
I recommend the following:


1. Talk to your employer (not the client manager). Explain the situation and tell him you would like to change to a different client (if possible)

2. If the above is not possible, try confronting your client manager( you can involve your employer if he is willing) and ask him openly for his opinion about your performance. If he expresses displeasure, try and see if the contract can be terminated early and you be released.

3. Start looking for a new job.

4. Talk to your doctor. They are familiar with such situations and after assessing you, they can write you off sick for some time.

5. If you start losing sleep over this, wake up in the middle of the night and start thinking about the work situation or if this is the first thing you think of in the morning, I recommend you get out before you crack.

Don't worry about being fired. You will find another job. You get unemployment benefit until you find a new one. You are unlikely to get a scathing review.

If you quit, you might be penalized but if your poor mental state can be proven by your doctor (with a letter) you might get off with 1 month's penalty. You lose some money but keep your sanity.
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Old 19.09.2019, 13:17
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Re: Quit or get fired

Thank you very much for the answers.

I am thinking of visiting my local RAV office to gather some information. Unfortunately, I am living in Vallis. I speak German but I am living in a French speaking city.

In RAV either in German or French speaking part, the people should speak both languages, right? Maybe English also?

Do you think is better to send an email first or go directly to the offices as a first approach?
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Old 19.09.2019, 14:22
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Re: Quit or get fired

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In RAV either in German or French speaking part, the people should speak both languages, right? Maybe English also?
Wrong.

Tom
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