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Old 07.09.2019, 22:15
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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Here's an interesting Swissinfo article where a reporter tried to live on the Swiss minimum subsistence level for one month - and gave up after two weeks. Tellingly the article is titled 'Experiencing The Stress Of Poverty In Switzerland'.
https://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/society...rland/45185298

Read the comments section as well.
Yes, especially the comments. This journalistic experiment can be found about other countries' social security levels, too.

One thing that strikes me in those articles I've read, is that the journalist conveniently forgets that they are trying this low income out from a baseline of already having, for example, proper dentistry, of owning a pair of winter boots and a warm jacket and gloves, and a swimming costume, of owning their working smartphone, corrected eye-glasses, a working vacuum-cleaner, TV, food-mixer, a good set of chopping knives, and perhaps a car and a bicycle. This position already slants the equation.

It's a very different matter to get by for a few weeks or months on a low income, than to live on that low level on an ongoing basis.

The long haul at a low income leaves one trying to decide whether to buy a new tube for the bicycle or new shoes, while knowing that not having either of them is likely to cause one further costs, e.g. busfare or plasters or bandages.

Last edited by doropfiz; 08.09.2019 at 06:45. Reason: grammar, and adding some items
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  #42  
Old 08.09.2019, 11:49
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So you know that Switzerland is an expensive country.... how exactly would you expect these people to live????
i just felt like they seem very high even compared to the cost of living

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I don't know how you come up with assertion, again so surely.

The reason you want to be here, somehow I feel, isn't because CH would be like "most countries". The sooner you accept the difference between CH and "most countries", the better for you.

it wouln't be nice if you can find a source that says you can't survive on 5500chf a month, i don't know what you guys think about this but this just cant be true

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  #43  
Old 08.09.2019, 12:09
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

Nivlem, Chf 5'500.-- is not so high, here in Switzerland, especially for Zug, but for somewhere, for instance New Delhi, it could sound very high for unskilled work.


Although as already mentioned, these "unskilled" jobs really are for Swiss nationals or EU people only. You have no hope getting a permit for these jobs as a foreign national.
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  #44  
Old 08.09.2019, 12:31
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

To wash dishes in a restaurant, you need to have a certificiate in dish washing.


(It's not a joke by the way - true story.)
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  #45  
Old 08.09.2019, 12:46
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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Nivlem, Chf 5'500.-- is not so high, here in Switzerland, especially for Zug, but for somewhere, for instance New Delhi, it could sound very high for unskilled work.


Although as already mentioned, these "unskilled" jobs really are for Swiss nationals or EU people only. You have no hope getting a permit for these jobs as a foreign national.
well, luckily i am from the EU
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  #46  
Old 08.09.2019, 13:12
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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Nivlem, Chf 5'500.-- is not so high, here in Switzerland, especially for Zug, but for somewhere, for instance New Delhi, it could sound very high for unskilled work.
It's also worth bearing in mind that for many nations, the perceived value of a given salary has increased significantly over time. For example, when I first came to CH that chf5500 would have equated to about £2300 (sterling). Does that seem particularly high? No, probably not. Now it equates to very nearly twice as much, it _sounds_ like a lot more if you're coming from the UK, but in reality it's exactly the same as it was 20 years ago (inflation notwithstanding, of course).

So no, salaries aren't really _that_ high, but yes, they really are around the numbers you mention.

But still neither 'untrained' nor 'unskilled'.
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  #47  
Old 08.09.2019, 14:43
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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I would say that living single with 66k annualy is perfectly fine as long as your not living in downtown zurich or geneva.
I lived in downtown Geneva for 4 years on 66k. It's fine. The only time I had to cut corners was a flat share and no family or car. Bought my lunch, went on vacation, went out for drinks.
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  #48  
Old 08.09.2019, 15:20
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

Oh please, the poeple I work with are earning the 5k mark. They live in nice apartments, drive late model BMWs and Audis and go on holidays 2 times a year. Sure they don't have kids /which changes things a lot) but they are hardly on the bones of their ass.
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  #49  
Old 08.09.2019, 20:04
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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ok so to sum up

i mix up the two terms.

fair enough that most jobs require some sort of education, however the idea that education is mandatory for jobs that almost anyone can do just seems really foreign to me.
I had to take a few night classes to be allowed to babysit children in my village when I was a teenager. If you wanted to be on the list of babysitters, you had to take a course and get a certificate.

Ever heard of the term "Swiss finish"? It traditionally denotes that the quality is exceptionally high and justifies a corresponding price. Unfortunately, some idiots like to just charge the high price and not deliver the service, so it is no longer a guarantee.
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Old 09.09.2019, 00:31
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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It's also worth bearing in mind that for many nations, the perceived value of a given salary has increased significantly over time. For example, when I first came to CH that chf5500 would have equated to about £2300 (sterling). Does that seem particularly high? No, probably not. Now it equates to very nearly twice as much, it _sounds_ like a lot more if you're coming from the UK, but in reality it's exactly the same as it was 20 years ago (inflation notwithstanding, of course).

So no, salaries aren't really _that_ high, but yes, they really are around the numbers you mention.

But still neither 'untrained' nor 'unskilled'.
£2300 a month is actually just shy of the median salary in the UK, so given regional differences and educational levels, I’m not sure your point stands.
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  #51  
Old 09.09.2019, 07:10
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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Nivlem, Chf 5'500.-- is not so high, here in Switzerland, especially for Zug, but for somewhere, for instance New Delhi, it could sound very high for unskilled work.


Although as already mentioned, these "unskilled" jobs really are for Swiss nationals or EU people only. You have no hope getting a permit for these jobs as a foreign national.
Comparing Indian wages to Swiss? Bit illogical!

https://www.newsclick.in/indian-workers-starvation-wage

Delhi-165 CHF a month!! ( if they are lucky )
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Old 09.09.2019, 10:50
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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it wouln't be nice if you can find a source that says you can't survive on 5500chf a month, i don't know what you guys think about this but this just cant be true
Yes you can, and very well at that, depending on how high your taxes are, and what your net/take-home pay will be out of that.
People tend to be extreme here...
I live (alone) in Basel and spend around 3500 CHF/month, all-inclusive - health insurance, rent (2 rooms flat), car lease, living like a normal human being, going and dining out, doing my grocery shopping in CH, being in the mountains pretty much every weekend summer/winter.

Last edited by dbucar; 09.09.2019 at 13:02.
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  #53  
Old 09.09.2019, 13:46
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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however the idea that education is mandatory for jobs that almost anyone can do just seems really foreign to me.
Wow. Just wow. And not a good wow just FYI. I could list dozens of job that most certainly not "almost anyone can do", but they're probably all beneath you.

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Next time you catch yourself thinking about how mostly everything works like clockwork in Switzerland you can return to this thread and remind yourself why.
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Yes! Anyone can learn to be a shop-assistant, on the job, right? But those who have completed an apprenticeship as a shop-assistant, know so much more than just how to ring up the sale on the cash-register and take the customer's money.

They have learnt how to operate and perhaps maintain a whole range of cash-registers, and something about things like these: stock control, conflict resolution, first-aid, marketing, book-keeping, health and safety regulations and inspections, buying, discounting, promotions of special offers, and how to explain the differences between similar products.

Some shop-assistants are unqualified, even in Switzerland. But those who have the apprenticeship can then build on that knowledge with experience and further courses, as they become promoted up the ranks to store manager, and so on.

That's applicable across many areas of work. That's why things simply work properly (by and large) in Switzerland.
Thank you.


Beyond that, the reason EVERYONE earns a decent wage here (and one that goes beyond living wage in most cases here) is precisely because they're all educated.

But I'm sure the US-type (and many countries') situation is better. Untrained or unskilled workers having to work three jobs to even make ends meet, or everyone having to go through a "degree" from a local "university" that is of questionable quality and certainly nowhere near academic yet still costs a crapload, and then get a similar job that a commercial apprenticeship would here, however unfortunately that jobs pays just about minimum wage, with which they have to pay off student loans. Yes. Sign me up for that.

Last edited by Samaire13; 09.09.2019 at 13:59.
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  #54  
Old 09.09.2019, 19:13
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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fair enough that most jobs require some sort of education, however the idea that education is mandatory for jobs that almost anyone can do just seems really foreign to me.
I can understand Nivlem's surprise.

At various stages in my previous life, I had worked as a shop assistant, an office clerk, a doctor's receptionist, a waiter, and a cleaner, and I had certainly never had any qualification so to do. The others who knew what to do had simply taught me my tasks on the job.

When I arrived in Switzerland, I discovered that there were formal apprenticeships for such jobs. Real training according to a syllabus, with practical exams, and two days of school per week, for 2 or 3 or 4 years, with theoretical exams, and a final project in the field. I'd never heard of any such thing, for jobs which I thought, then, that "anyone could do", and was flabbergasted.

It was only over time that I came to appreciate this system, which brings dignity to everyone who has completed their qualification. And it brings a certain peace of mind to those using the services, because those providing them, by and large, Really Can Do The Job, unlike when I did it, with much less of a concept of the overall context let alone what I could be doing better.

Moreover, the people coming through the Swiss system of apprentices have a solid foundation in the basic knowledge with which, as they progress and learn more, they will later be able to take on more and more complex tasks (e.g. quantifying the amount of cleaning materials needed for the teams cleaning a hospital). I like that.

I shifted my persective, and I now think is is great that people who have completed such an apprenticeship can earn enough to live on and can Be Someone.
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Old 09.09.2019, 20:47
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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If you think 66k is a lot you're in for a surprise. That's barely enough for one person to live by with minimum or no savings in any of the major cities.

Probably enough to save something if you live in a village and definitely not enough to feed a family on.
Bollix. I lived on a lot less in Central Zurich. Sure, maybe I didn't go out for dinner often, and when I did maybe I opted not buy a bottle of mineral water for Fr. 10, but my life was just fine.
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Old 09.09.2019, 23:30
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

It's not that you need a diploma for every job, but if you don't have it it's likely you won't get the job because the competition is high. Also your job needs to have enough added value to even exist in Switzerland, and traning and specialization are one way to do it.
In any case, if you want salaries you should look at statistics
https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home...l.6286483.html
For foreigners you can further decrease by 10%, and this is only if you are full time which as previously mentioned is hard for a cleaning lady doing private househoulds at 23 chf/hour or if working in shifts at a clothes packaging center for example.
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Old 10.09.2019, 00:01
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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It's not that you need a diploma for every job, but if you don't have it it's likely you won't get the job because the competition is high. Also your job needs to have enough added value to even exist in Switzerland, and traning and specialization are one way to do it.
In any case, if you want salaries you should look at statistics
https://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/en/home...l.6286483.html
For foreigners you can further decrease by 10%, and this is only if you are full time which as previously mentioned is hard for a cleaning lady doing private househoulds at 23 chf/hour or if working in shifts at a clothes packaging center for example.
Actually, it appears that foreigners in the typical office job tend to earn more than Swiss people. Certainly more than Swiss women in that job. If you look at, e.g. experiences back office staff jobs with large companies, Salarium indicates that C-permit owners have a higher average wage than Swiss people.

As for the cleaning lady, I have one because my health can be a bit hit and miss and my flatmate's schedule is not conducive to a cleaning rota. We split the cost and although I am underpaid for my experience and skill myself, I pay her 25 francs an hour into her bank account and her taxes and social security costs separately. She also gets something for her birthday and Christmas (I hope other clients do that too, then it would add up to a nice little bonus). At the moment, she does not have paid sick leave and her wages include four weeks' holidays (which she takes, sometimes even five, more than me! but good for her) that she has to deduct from her hourly wages herself. I would like to offer her better terms but money really is very tight at the moment and will stay so for a while as I had to borrow some for vet bills that weren't covered by insurance.

So... sometimes, salaries for highly trained, skilled, motivated people who offer a clearly measurable value to their employer are not that high because they have fallen through the cracks of the promotion politics on account of not being strategic in their thinking. Too busy just trying to do a good job and improving how things work/helping others do the same to think about that sort of thing. Oh well, better late than never...
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Old 10.09.2019, 07:50
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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£2300 a month is actually just shy of the median salary in the UK, so given regional differences and educational levels, I’m not sure your point stands.
That was not the case 20 years ago which is the point. UK salaries are substantially higher over 20/30 years where Swiss salaries have not increased very much over that time.

20 years ago that was an attractive salary for someone from the UK today, with the lower £ is is still today.
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Old 10.09.2019, 07:59
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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it wouln't be nice if you can find a source that says you can't survive on 5500chf a month, i don't know what you guys think about this but this just cant be true
Obviously you can live on 5500chf per month, that is self-explanatory. People live perfectly fine with a roof over their heads on less. Lets keep things in context.

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Oh please, the poeple I work with are earning the 5k mark. They live in nice apartments, drive late model BMWs and Audis and go on holidays 2 times a year. Sure they don't have kids /which changes things a lot) but they are hardly on the bones of their ass.
Sorry but that sounds like an exaggeration. 5500CHF per month is not poverty... but 'nice apartments, new(ish) BMW's/Audi's and 2x holidays'?

Is it 5500chf per month before or after tax? Where do they live?
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Old 10.09.2019, 10:02
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Re: Are salaries for untrained people really that high?

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Sorry but that sounds like an exaggeration. 5500CHF per month is not poverty... but 'nice apartments, new(ish) BMW's/Audi's and 2x holidays'?

Is it 5500chf per month before or after tax? Where do they live?
I used to earn 5k gross as a single bloke, lived in a 5 room apartment on the Gold Coast, was away most weekends and out on the town as often as five times a week.

It's a decent salary for someone without dependants.
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