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  #41  
Old 09.12.2020, 18:12
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Re: Work and mental health

say that doctor prescribes 70% workload, meaning that one works 70% and the remaining 30% is sickness.

I wonder who pays out those 30%? Employer, employer's health insurance or compulsory health insurance?

thanks
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  #42  
Old 10.12.2020, 22:27
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Re: Work and mental health

Really check into biofeedback and neurofeedback. Practice breathing with Heartmath

Also call unique therapy.
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  #43  
Old 10.12.2020, 23:01
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Re: Work and mental health

Really? This is not an expert forum but a forum with people who share ideas and experiences. Yours is one, others view it differently maybe
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  #44  
Old 10.12.2020, 23:40
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Re: Work and mental health

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The Post of Justin is over a year old and I really hope he has got the help he needs and doesn't s suffer from this condition anymore.

This Threat just popped up today because someone posted something new. I started reading without having noticed the date first...

I AM SHOCKED!!!!

I am shocked noticing sooo many people intending to help but not even once mentioning psychotherapy or better.. psychoanalysis!

I am shocked reading people repeating "take off", "go traveling", "take hollidays", as if one could run away from panic attacks by changing the environment.

I am shocked realizing how poor is actually the general knowledge about psychic functioning, psychotherapy services, the science of psychology and PSYCHOANALYSIS.

You are living in the 21th century in a modern country and probably most of you have even seen more of the world than this one little country. And still. None of you gives Justin the advice to seek psychotherapy??? I am shocked.


I think I really need to open a threat about mental health to deal with this in a constructive way...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rni4...nnel=TEDxTalks

Last edited by roegner; 11.12.2020 at 16:13. Reason: Removed name in quote
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  #45  
Old 11.12.2020, 00:01
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Re: Work and mental health

@N
Welcome to the forum. I'm going to try to say this very gently.

Yes, you are a psychologist, google tells me so. If I recall correctly, a few months ago someone you know joined this forum to promote your work. I read that you have provided support to traumatised people, and since many prefer to look away, wilfully blind, rather than listening to the real pain, that is a challenging task for which I respect you.

However, I think that you do not do yourself, nor the people on this forum, any favours by shouting (and in fora, ALL CAPITAL letters means shouting) at those who may read your posts.

As roegner has rightly said, this is not an expert forum. Or at least, this forum is blessed to have members here who are experts in many different fields, and we have some amazingly talented and skilled folk with and without formal education, and some who suffer greatly, in many regards. People here are English-speaking or, like you, have English as one of the several languages they speak. It's a really interesting place.

Please, take your time to find your way around here. Tread gently. Read up, if you would like to, on some of the many threads. There is a great deal of good advice here, a fair amount of desperation, many, many hours' worth of kindness and, regrettably, an ugly portion of vitriolic nastiness.

Please, stay, and become one of the patient, helpful contributors. Remember that this is a fully public forum, which means everyone who can get internet access can see whatever you write. Please don't shout, and please don't berate the forum users (such a mixed bunch that we are) for not having done x or y. After all, none of us is here in a professional role (i.e. not towards the other members of the forum), and so none of us has any duty to do anything at all here, other than to abide by the forum's netiquette rules.

We muddle along, and sometimes what we do is mediocre, sometimes unpleasant, yet sometimes really spendid. Over the years, some of the good, quick, pragmatic and helpful actions of some of the forum members have rescued people in all sorts of confusion and trouble, others have just been kind and cheered somone's day, and more than one life has been saved by the intervention of people on this forum, so there is a lot of good going on behind the scenes. The rest of the time we're off busy in Real Life. And that's okay, too.

Last edited by roegner; 11.12.2020 at 16:01.
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  #46  
Old 11.12.2020, 01:03
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Re: Work and mental health

https://sciencebasedmedicine.org/psy...vidence-based/


Actually, virtually all psychological interventions and psychotherapy may not be much better than 'talk to a friend'. the only method that has really solid scientific evidence is CBT (cognitive behavioural therapy).


Please also do not put psychotherapy and psycohlogy into the same basket. Many people recommended the general doctor as a first point of contact, and then with possible referral to a psychiatrist. In Switszerland, to get medical insurance to cover the cost of talking therapy this is the route that you need to take. The psychistrist can then 'prescribe' another therapist, and then most of the cost will be paid. And it's expensive!


In Australia, clinical psychology requires at least 5 years of university study, supervised clinical practice and is highly regulated. Counselling and psychotherapy are self-regulated or essentually unregulated. And not only that, there are multiple 'associations' which compete with each other for some sort of professionalisation...


I understand the profession may be regulated differently in the country where you studied. But I would never put them in the same basket...

And I am quite sure that I probably did post very even-handed advice about looking at a combination of 'talking therapy' of some sort, and medication - one, the other or both - as general treatment options....


The evidence for 'psychoanalysis' remains quite thin.... I was quite surprised when I moved from Australia that psychotherapy and particular psychoanalysis were promoted here.... in Australia they are virtually 'fringe' therapies...or 'alternative'...at the least.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5459228/
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  #47  
Old 11.12.2020, 01:29
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Re: Work and mental health

As it was my recollection that people did, indeed, suggest doing something psychological, in one way or another, I went back to re-read the thread, and the advice.

It seems to me that anyone who is already experienced in any form of psychotherapy, whether psychoanalysis or coginitive behavioural therapy, or any other kind, would have known whether to turn to that kind of help again.

I took OP to be someone who wasn't quite sure what would be a good course, and not au fait with the world of psychiatry and psychology, and who was hoping for some good advice. The first posts seem to me to give exactly that.

Could it be, N, that this general, cautious advice shocks you so much because, perhaps, you may not know that in Switzerland, many people are insured in such a way that they can get referrals to specialist doctors (as a psychiatrist is) or to psychologist, only through their GP (house doctor)? Otherwise the costs can be prohibitive. This insurance aspect - plus, of course, the plain fact that none of us could possibly know, by any means, from what kind of ailment OP is really suffering - may explain why so many people recommended that OP try to get some rest, and go to see his doctor, as a place to start.

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Can you take some holidays? I would advise you take at least 2 weeks, .... and see if it helps to see things clearer.
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.. talk to your doctor. ....He might recommend you see a psychiatrist.
Post 4
More info by OP

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See a psychiatrist, get to the source of it.

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Take 6 months off and go and travel.
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Go and see your Doctor tomorrow. ...If you need further referral to a specialist they will do it.

That gives you time out to asses the situation and discuss with your doctor the next steps.

Once that is calm and clear you can address the work/life situation.
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I'm sorry to hear that. They say "you don't land in a psychiatrist because of big misfortunes but because of trivialities like a shoelace crack when you're overwhelmed with problems". Try to change what you can control and stop worrying, i.e. visit a doctor, take sick off if you need...
Post 9
Kind post from someone explaining his journey with a similar problem, and what he did to feel better
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I know exactly the feeling .. ...
My doc sent me to a psyc, which i found pretty pointless. Also gave me tablets (which i didn't take) in case things got bad..

Long story short, in my opinion it was more the worry about getting that feeling than the feeling itself.. I found that being stubborn and ignoring the first symptom did the trick, .... Plus knowing you have a magic tablet in case it helps.

Exercise also helps a lot..
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Hey, John_H,
That's quite an achievement, to have dealt with such symptoms more or less with your own inner strength.
...
OP seems to have been trying for many months now, ... So I'm about to add to the "see a doctor" line.

Last edited by roegner; 11.12.2020 at 16:14. Reason: Removed name
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  #48  
Old 11.12.2020, 01:35
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Re: Work and mental health

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I am shocked noticing sooo many people intending to help but not even once mentioning psychotherapy or better.. psychoanalysis!
...
None of you gives Justin the advice to seek psychotherapy??? I am shocked.
I've just re-read the whole thread. In fact, several people did, indeed, mention the option of seeing a psychiatrist or a psychologist, to find out what was really needed.

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  #49  
Old 11.12.2020, 01:45
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Re: Work and mental health

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Those are different professions
Indeed, but the point still stands: specialist intervention was suggested /recommended. It sounds to me like you are seeking to create an argument for arguments' sake.

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  #50  
Old 11.12.2020, 02:34
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Re: Work and mental health

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Those are different professions
Perhaps there's a cultural misunderstanding here. The most important thing I read in the bulk of the thread was encouragement to start somewhere.

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You talk about "doctor" and "specialist" being the same thing.
I think that most people recommending a doctor meant a GP, a general practitioner (in German, Hausarzt).

Their reason is that this is the usual first place to go, when in need of any kind of medical and/or psychological help. The GP is the starting point and the coordinating hub.

The GP's job is to decide whether the person needs physical tests, or psychological support for a short while (which the GP may provide, themselves, if appropriate), or a referral to a psychiatrist or a psychologist for testing, diagnosis, possible medication and/or for psychotherapy.

For further clairifcation, please see the new thread I started called Psychotherapy: what it is and how to get it.
https://www.englishforum.ch/family-m...ml#post3249926

What I write, there, applies to my understanding of how things are done in Switzerland. I think you probably know part of this, and part perhaps not. I'm writing, however, not only to you, specifically, but also for others (maybe even OP) who may be reading this, while needing or considering psychotherapy.

The first part (on the new thread) is about the qualifications, and the next about the services they provide.

Last edited by roegner; 11.12.2020 at 16:02.
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  #51  
Old 11.12.2020, 10:11
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Re: Work and mental health

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The Post of Justin is over a year old and I really hope he has got the help he needs and doesn't s suffer from this condition anymore.

This Threat just popped up today because someone posted something new. I started reading without having noticed the date first...

I AM SHOCKED!!!!

I am shocked noticing sooo many people intending to help but not even once mentioning psychotherapy or better.. psychoanalysis!

I am shocked reading people repeating "take off", "go traveling", "take hollidays", as if one could run away from panic attacks by changing the environment.

I am shocked realizing how poor is actually the general knowledge about psychic functioning, psychotherapy services, the science of psychology and PSYCHOANALYSIS.

You are living in the 21th century in a modern country and probably most of you have even seen more of the world than this one little country. And still. None of you gives Justin the advice to seek psychotherapy??? I am shocked.


I think I really need to open a threat about mental health to deal with this in a constructive way...
I specifically told him to go see a psychiatrist. I see one and he provides medication and psychoanalysis.

Are you sure you are a therapist? You are behaving quite strangely and are not a good example of your profession. Perhaps you shouldn't derail Justin's experience and open a new thread on this topic.

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  #52  
Old 11.12.2020, 10:18
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Re: Work and mental health

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Yes, and I am shocked that so many people did not mention psychotherapy.

I think you misunderstood me as wanting to put my opinion or my ideas or experiences above everyone else. That was not the case. That was not my intention.

I am just shocked sooo people basically denying the existence of a science called psychotherapy. Don't you find it shocking? I'm sorry, but to me it sounded like someone saying: "I broke my leg and it really hurts" and someone answering: "drink chamomile tea" and someone answering: "take the day off and think positive".

It sounds like nobody has heard about psychotherapy. Why is that I wonder!
I don't think it's that nobody here had heard about psychotherapy. But I'm sure that if someone here had benefited from psychotherapy alone as a means to cure stress, they would have suggested it.

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Old 11.12.2020, 10:42
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Re: Work and mental health

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Yes, and I am shocked that so many people did not mention psychotherapy.
Actually I find your approach to this thread shocking, it seems to show a limited perspective and a lack of understanding of the human state. I can’t see that being particularly helpful to anyone in need of advice.

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  #54  
Old 11.12.2020, 10:57
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Re: Work and mental health

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I am shocked noticing sooo many people intending to help but not even once mentioning psychotherapy or better.. psychoanalysis!
...

I am shocked realizing how poor is actually the general knowledge about psychic functioning, psychotherapy services, the science of psychology and PSYCHOANALYSIS.
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The evidence for 'psychoanalysis' remains quite thin.... I was quite surprised when I moved from Australia that psychotherapy and particular psychoanalysis were promoted here.... in Australia they are virtually 'fringe' therapies...or 'alternative'...at the least.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5459228/

I'm totally in line with Swisspea. [mod edit - name removed] seems to have a bend towards psychoanalysis, which is defined in the Oxford English dictionary as:
"a system of psychological theory and therapy which aims to treat mental disorders by investigating the interaction of conscious and unconscious elements in the mind and bringing repressed fears and conflicts into the conscious mind by techniques such as dream interpretation and free association."
It is not evidence-based, and if you choose to go to a psychoanalyst without your general doctor prescribing it as psychotherapy, it is generally not covered by medical insurance.

I was also surprised to learn that some Swiss medical professionals still prescribe to some of these outdated and debunked notions. I see a psychiatrist and take medication because I basically have a brain that works a bit too fast sometimes, but I'm otherwise fine. During the years of my initial diagnosis and trying to find the correct treatment I was shocked at the number of certified professionals I encountered who had followed a mainstream educational path (medical doctor, registered psychiatric nurse), but actually secretly adhered to some alternate explanations for my behaviour. There was the psychiatrist who told me he doesn't believe in or practice cognitive behavioural therapy, but rather thinks all psychological problems are traceable back to traumatic experiences in childhood. Only saw him once, but he was not the only MD I encountered who seemed bent on trying to blame my problems on my parents or my upbringing. I had (and still have) fantastic parents, a loving, laughing family, and a very nurturing schooling and general environment.

I was also once prescribed treatment with a psychiatric nurse who also performed full body massages and relaxation therapy, which sounded great at first, but she also believed there were invisible energy fields in my body that had to be aligned with the earth's magnetic fields while I was lying on the massage table. And when she once jammed her finger into my belly button while I was lying on my back and I startled, her explanation was that the belly button is your link to your mother, and if you startle like I did it was a sign of a problematic relationship with your mother in childhood.

Now I see a psychiatrist who treats me as though I am a completely healthy person who just happens to need a bit of medication to keep my thoughts and emotions within the range of normal. I wasted years listening to people who nurtured the concept that I was an inherently flawed person, or that I would have to "come to terms" with all sorts of non-existent phenomena in my past and current life in order to be a functioning member of society. My lack of engagement with these folks (I never got on with them well) was explained away by the fact that I was somehow in denial. I just happen to know my mom is great, and I am not repressing any traumatic memories.

The one message I always communicate to people who are struggling mentally and in the process of seeking help is to be very, very careful about who you listen to. Not all medical professionals are rational, and I think they can perform enormous harm to one's psyche if they make you believe things about yourself that aren't true.

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  #55  
Old 11.12.2020, 11:21
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Re: Work and mental health

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I wasted years listening to people who nurtured the concept that I was an inherently flawed person, or that I would have to "come to terms" with all sorts of non-existent phenomena in my past and current life in order to be a functioning member of society. My lack of engagement with these folks (I never got on with them well) was explained away by the fact that I was somehow in denial. I just happen to know my mom is great, and I am not repressing any traumatic memories.

The one message I always communicate to people who are struggling mentally and in the process of seeking help is to be very, very careful about who you listen to. Not all medical professionals are rational, and I think they can perform enormous harm to one's psyche if they make you believe thingy about yourself that aren't true.
Completely agree with this - finding the right therapist is incredibly difficult and also very important. I was so lucky to receive a referral from a trusted friend to my psychologist, who later referred me to a psychiatrist she works with for medication and further treatment.
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Old 11.12.2020, 13:57
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Re: Work and mental health

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The one message I always communicate to people who are struggling mentally and in the process of seeking help is to be very, very careful about who you listen to. Not all medical professionals are rational, and I think they can perform enormous harm to one's psyche if they make you believe things about yourself that aren't true.
I agree with this. That's the very point: it's not "one size fits all". Those who, unlike you bossie, really do have troubles in their past that they know and feel to be hindering them in the present, can sometimes benefit from going back to look at what happened.

Some patients don't feel taken seriously when offered CBT, while to others, it is a wonderful tool that enables them to get their lives back on track, and to be the one in charge of their own everyday experiences. Some loathe medication, or find it doesn't help or causes new problems, whereas to others, medication is a huge help. To some, opening up all those old stories again is likely to burden or possibly destabilise them, while to others brushing the past under the carpet is likely to cause repeated patterns in their own behaviour, which can be stressful or destructive. They may need to leave as many stones unturned as they can, while finding the courage to look under at least some of them, and by facing the narratives honestly, to clear out the debris.

As such, I'd like to say that I think psychoanalysis does have its place along there with the other serious, acknowledged methods of psychotherapy. It works for some, and can bring relief and stimulate inner growth. The same goes for physically based therapies, or for trauma therapy (in the case of real trauma).

The thing I find tedious is when a medical professional or therapist is so enamoured with their particular monodirectional method or school of thinking that they can't or won't do anything else. If they fall into this trap, they may very well forget to look at and listen to the individual patient who is right there in front of them and, in so doing, inadvertently overlook the patient's real needs. It's a shame when everything that doesn't match the therapist's model is dismissed, or attributed to the patient's inability or unwillingness to participate.

Likewise, though, a patient who has a good, or a bad, experience with one or other method cannot fairly extrapolate from that to be sure, or to deny, that something might work for someone else.


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I was also once prescribed treatment with a psychiatric nurse who also performed full body massages and relaxation therapy, which sounded great at first, but she also believed there were invisible energy fields in my body that had to be aligned with the earth's magnetic fields while I was lying on the massage table. And when she once jammed her finger into my belly button while I was lying on my back and I startled, her explanation was that the belly button is your link to your mother, and if you startle like I did it was a sign of a problematic relationship with your mother in childhood.
Even so, a person poking her finger into one's navel, who is supposed to be a psychiatric nurse? Wow, that really sounds most inappropriate, as does her determination to cast your good relationship with your mother in a bad light, on that basis. I'm sorry that happened to you.
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Old 11.12.2020, 14:13
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Re: Work and mental health

Oh, I've just seen that N, who recently posted on this thread and started quite some chain of responses, has been permanently banned, at her own request. That's a pity, I think. Her posts have been deleted (fair enough, and thank you roegner) and that explains why this thread is now a bit jumpy.

Oh, well, N, if you're perhaps still reading this, from the outside, I hope you've understood a bit more about people's varied experiences in Switzerland, here, or a bit more about the system of qualifications and [some] types of psychotherapies, and the insurances, over on the other thread "Psychotherapy, what it is and how to get it". https://www.englishforum.ch/family-m...t-how-get.html

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Old 11.12.2020, 14:14
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Re: Work and mental health

Sorry Doropfiz, OP asked to be deleted, still figuring out how to do that
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Old 11.12.2020, 14:25
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Re: Work and mental health

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Sorry Doropfiz, OP asked to be deleted, still figuring out how to do that
It seems to me you're doing it all very well. It's not easy to clean up a thread so that it still makes sense. I think you've done a good job.
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Old 11.12.2020, 14:57
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Re: Work and mental health

Probably smart of her since she used her actual name for her profile name & in no way gave a positive image of her chosen profession. I hope she does not sharply criticize her clients like that...
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