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Old 14.12.2019, 10:49
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Job offer as contractor at ubs

Dear forum members,
I just got an offer as contractor within Risk change department of Ubs in Zurich as risk specialist.
Currently I have a perm contract 90k + 10k of bonus(26 days of holidays, canteen subsidies, sbb voucher) still in Zurich.
The offer of the agency is 600 as daily rate which would result in a gross increase of 20% (10k per month) but netto would result only in 500 bucks increase per month and I will have only 20 days of vacation per year.
From their calculation 11400 gross will be approx 8 netto (ink 13 months, 800 chf for future vacation and circa 300 chf as bank holidays) by considering this figures with 8.33% and 3.2% respectively.
Contract duration is 6 months but the project should last min 2 years and I have 4.5 years of experience with master and bachelors.
Do you think that the rate is in line with the current market?
To make a long story short that offer seems for me low and inconvenient but I don’t know how is the margin of negotiation or if would make sense to accept and ask an increase after 6 months.
Do you have any kind of experience ?
Does anyone know how to convert the daily rate if it was perm contract?
I have to decide by end of Wednesday
Thanks in advance for all contributors!

Last edited by roegner; 14.12.2019 at 11:48. Reason: User request
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Old 14.12.2019, 11:24
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

Never do anything unless your absolutely certain about it.
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Old 14.12.2019, 11:35
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Never do anything unless your absolutely certain about it.
This feels like a recipe for never doing anything.
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Old 14.12.2019, 12:29
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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This feels like a recipe for never doing anything.
Yeh! Well!
IMO A risk specialist has by nature a problem taking risks.
No idea if OP has family. Age? etc..
Basically the OP must decide.
Personally I would not leave a perm position for a 6M contract to gain 6K more a year. However, if the job itself is more to my liking or a potential career gaining possibility...
Also at UBS or any big corp nothing is ever certain or guaranteed (even for perms). Always some CEO trying to outsource one position or another to justify a bonus. And another CEO trying to can a project for the same reason.
Then again, no pain no gain!
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Old 14.12.2019, 13:14
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Dear forum members,
I just got an offer as contractor within Risk change department of Ubs in Zurich as risk specialist.
Currently I have a perm contract 90k + 10k of bonus(26 days of holidays, canteen subsidies, sbb voucher) still in Zurich.
The offer of the agency is 600 as daily rate which would result in a gross increase of 20% (10k per month) but netto would result only in 500 bucks increase per month and I will have only 20 days of vacation per year.
From their calculation 11400 gross will be approx 8 netto (ink 13 months, 800 chf for future vacation and circa 300 chf as bank holidays) by considering this figures with 8.33% and 3.2% respectively.
Contract duration is 6 months but the project should last min 2 years and I have 4.5 years of experience with master and bachelors.
Do you think that the rate is in line with the current market?
To make a long story short that offer seems for me low and inconvenient but I donít know how is the margin of negotiation or if would make sense to accept and ask an increase after 6 months.
Do you have any kind of experience ?
Does anyone know how to convert the daily rate if it was perm contract?
I have to decide by end of Wednesday
Thanks in advance for all contributors!
As someone who knows the environment quite well, be mindful you'll be just considered meat at that role. UBS treats external like printer cartridges.
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Old 14.12.2019, 13:14
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

Youíre in a good position to negotiate as you already have a job.

How much more you should get to take such a risk is up to you and perception of such risk. Could be that you could squeeze 10% more out of the agency but it could also be that double the daily rate is not enough... itís up to you... you donít have much to lose from my perspective so push them hard.
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Old 14.12.2019, 15:05
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Dear forum members,
I just got an offer as contractor within Risk change department of Ubs in Zurich as risk specialist.
Currently I have a perm contract 90k + 10k of bonus(26 days of holidays, canteen subsidies, sbb voucher) still in Zurich.
The offer of the agency is 600 as daily rate which would result in a gross increase of 20% (10k per month) but netto would result only in 500 bucks increase per month and I will have only 20 days of vacation per year.
From their calculation 11400 gross will be approx 8 netto (ink 13 months, 800 chf for future vacation and circa 300 chf as bank holidays) by considering this figures with 8.33% and 3.2% respectively.
Contract duration is 6 months but the project should last min 2 years and I have 4.5 years of experience with master and bachelors.
Do you think that the rate is in line with the current market?
To make a long story short that offer seems for me low and inconvenient but I donít know how is the margin of negotiation or if would make sense to accept and ask an increase after 6 months.
Do you have any kind of experience ?
Does anyone know how to convert the daily rate if it was perm contract?
I have to decide by end of Wednesday
Thanks in advance for all contributors!

Try to negotiate a better deal. Worst case scenario, they say "no" and you keep your current job.
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Old 14.12.2019, 15:20
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

How do you get from 600/day to 10k month? Am not following the calculation as typically we use 22.5 days as average working days per month. Or 52*5 and then divide by 12?

Anyway - cost to UBS will be the same and you are essentially taking all the risk without any of the big corp benefits (for example sick leave, holidays, health insurance, canteen, pension plan, having UBS as employer, Reka check etc - not sure of their benefit scheme but they probably have a few things)

The 20% increase you quote can quickly be eroded by this.

Also if they don't renew after 6 months it will look like something went wrong.

So either negotiate A LOT more for the inconvenience or let them appoint someone else.
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Old 14.12.2019, 15:59
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

800/day should be your limit, lower makes no sense.
agencies normally sell contractors for 120-200 CHF/hour! so do your maths!
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Old 15.12.2019, 02:22
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

You don't say how long you've been working in Switzerland but remember that should you ever lose your job and want to apply to the RAV for help, you need to have worked for 12 months in the last 2 years.

If you're a contractor, I presume you'll be classed as self-employed, and so will lose that entitlement. May not be a problem right now, but if you contract for a couple of years then find yourself out of work, and are struggling to get another good contract, you'll no longer be protected. Something to think about.
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Old 15.12.2019, 06:34
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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You don't say how long you've been working in Switzerland but remember that should you ever lose your job and want to apply to the RAV for help, you need to have worked for 12 months in the last 2 years.

If you're a contractor, I presume you'll be classed as self-employed, and so will lose that entitlement. May not be a problem right now, but if you contract for a couple of years then find yourself out of work, and are struggling to get another good contract, you'll no longer be protected. Something to think about.
My understanding is that OP will be employed by a third party who will then send him on site to UBS.

If not then this is very correct and makes the offer even less good!
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Old 15.12.2019, 10:04
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My understanding is that OP will be employed by a third party who will then send him on site to UBS.

If not then this is very correct and makes the offer even less good!
Yes exactly, I will be employed by the agency and I will work on site

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How do you get from 600/day to 10k month? Am not following the calculation as typically we use 22.5 days as average working days per month. Or 52*5 and then divide by 12?

Anyway - cost to UBS will be the same and you are essentially taking all the risk without any of the big corp benefits (for example sick leave, holidays, health insurance, canteen, pension plan, having UBS as employer, Reka check etc - not sure of their benefit scheme but they probably have a few things)

The 20% increase you quote can quickly be eroded by this.

Also if they don't renew after 6 months it will look like something went wrong.

So either negotiate A LOT more for the inconvenience or let them appoint someone else.

Their simulation is base on 19 working days. As a contract I will not have anything of these benefits , based on the simulation I will still have insurance, pension plan but almost 5k of the gross salary will be used to cover all employee and employer costs. What I am struggling to understand is that if is a way to convert this rate as it was permanent and what is the a rate that I might eventually ask

Last edited by roegner; 15.12.2019 at 10:20. Reason: Merging consecutive posts
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Old 15.12.2019, 10:20
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Yes exactly, I will be employed by the agency and I will work on site
I have already worked 16 months. New jib will start in February and at that time I will already completed 18 months
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Old 15.12.2019, 10:22
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Yeh! Well!
IMO A risk specialist has by nature a problem taking risks.
No idea if OP has family. Age? etc..
Basically the OP must decide.
Personally I would not leave a perm position for a 6M contract to gain 6K more a year. However, if the job itself is more to my liking or a potential career gaining possibility...
Also at UBS or any big corp nothing is ever certain or guaranteed (even for perms). Always some CEO trying to outsource one position or another to justify a bonus. And another CEO trying to can a project for the same reason.
Then again, no pain no gain!
Thanks for your feedback. The position seems to be interesting nevertheless I am not convinced about the offer which looks like not really competitive but maybe I am wrong...
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Old 15.12.2019, 10:51
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

Use this calculater:


https://payrollplus.ch/freelancer/rechner/



just enter 600 CHF a day at the top, your age range, e.g. 35-44 and then you see the result is about 455 CHF net /day,



a year has about 250 working days - 25 day holidays - 7 days disease days = 218 days billable


218 x 455 = 99'190 net salary . Be aware if you are sick for more than 7 days it will be even less (risk is on employee side)
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Old 15.12.2019, 11:03
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Yes exactly, I will be employed by the agency and I will work on site
Their simulation is base on 19 working days. As a contract I will not have anything of these benefits , based on the simulation I will still have insurance, pension plan but almost 5k of the gross salary will be used to cover all employee and employer costs. What I am struggling to understand is that if is a way to convert this rate as it was permanent and what is the a rate that I might eventually ask
Check that the pension benefit (2nd pillar) payin will be about the same as your current employer. Agents usually go with the minimum lawfully required.
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Old 15.12.2019, 16:38
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Yes exactly, I will be employed by the agency and I will work on site




Their simulation is base on 19 working days. As a contract I will not have anything of these benefits , based on the simulation I will still have insurance, pension plan but almost 5k of the gross salary will be used to cover all employee and employer costs. What I am struggling to understand is that if is a way to convert this rate as it was permanent and what is the a rate that I might eventually ask
Why 19 working days? Will you actually be paid for the days worked or given a fixed monthly salary?
Will they pay you if you are sick? Hospitalised?
How is their pension plan?

UBS will pay what they would an employee, then agency skims on it by giving you less benefits and UBS is happen as they are derisking it and you don't count as permanent work force.
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Old 15.12.2019, 16:57
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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To make a long story short that offer seems for me low and inconvenient but I donít know how is the margin of negotiation or if would make sense to accept and ask an increase after 6 months.
You already know the answer, TBH. An extra 500 p.m. to let go of an open ended contract, with better holidays, and all the other contributions, does not appear terribly attractive, unless you cannot abide your current position or this contract were advantageous to your career in some way - how much better would two years in this role look on your CV than what you're doing now? Is it more than marginal?

If I were you, I'd pass, citing the money. They may come back to you with a better offer then and if not, well, that answers the question of whether they would agree to a raise in six months time.
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Old 15.12.2019, 19:27
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

If the offer is directly from an agency never ever accept the first offer. 600 sounds pretty poor to me.
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Old 15.12.2019, 20:09
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Re: Job offer as contractor at ubs

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Dear forum members,
I just got an offer as contractor within Risk change department of Ubs in Zurich as risk specialist.
Currently I have a perm contract 90k + 10k of bonus(26 days of holidays, canteen subsidies, sbb voucher) still in Zurich.
The offer of the agency is 600 as daily rate which would result in a gross increase of 20% (10k per month) but netto would result only in 500 bucks increase per month and I will have only 20 days of vacation per year.
From their calculation 11400 gross will be approx 8 netto (ink 13 months, 800 chf for future vacation and circa 300 chf as bank holidays) by considering this figures with 8.33% and 3.2% respectively.
Contract duration is 6 months but the project should last min 2 years and I have 4.5 years of experience with master and bachelors.
Do you think that the rate is in line with the current market?
To make a long story short that offer seems for me low and inconvenient but I donít know how is the margin of negotiation or if would make sense to accept and ask an increase after 6 months.
Do you have any kind of experience ?
Does anyone know how to convert the daily rate if it was perm contract?
I have to decide by end of Wednesday
Thanks in advance for all contributors!
You need to start by comparing like with like... The rate offered by the agency is what is called an all in rate, which means that it includes the employers contributions as well, so your permanent job is 90k + 10K + 12k to maybe 15K in employers contributions.

Next you need to consider Pension, disability and loss of income coverage. The services used by the agency are intended to put as much of the fee into your hand as possible, not get you the best coverage as offered by your current employer. It's fine if all goes well, but if you have issues, your coverage will be basically the worst that can legally be offered.

As for holidays, you have zero paid holidays, it is just an accounting entry - they skim a slice the daily fee and hold it over to pay out to you when you take holidays and of course you get nothing to cover training and education.

I'm not in the game anymore, but last time I did the calculations a few years a go to get the equivalent benefits of a permanent job offering about 100k at one of the major banks, you'd need to be making about a 105 CHF/Hour.
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