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Old 17.12.2019, 10:16
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Kaufmännische Ausbildung

What is your opinion about using a 6-month course "Kaufmännische Ausbildung" to change field of activity and start looking for work for such a job in administration etc? (quereinsteiger, 35, no previous experience)

From my point of view having the certificate, speaking German and English and having minimal MS Office / PC skills does not require to be a genius and should help landing a job .. but maybe the job market sees this in a different way.

Do you personally know someone who went this path and succesfully found a job this way?
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Old 17.12.2019, 10:22
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

The problem is that the job market is saturated with general administrative people with German and English (most places seem to be looking for that as a minimum language set these days) so job seekers with minimal experience and skills in the field go to the back of the queue.

Do you have any other skills from another background, e.g. banking? Speak another language? If you can bring something else to the table you will probably stand a better chance.
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Old 17.12.2019, 10:25
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

No no other special skills. Just a few years of work experience in something completely different.
But I see there are a lot of open jobs in this field which are looking for candidates to apply to.
Most of the jobs ask however for previous experience. Which is puzzling me. Because it is not rocket science.
So there is a chicken and egg problem. How can one gain such an experience?
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Old 17.12.2019, 10:32
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

By whom is this training offered? The KV or someone else?
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Old 17.12.2019, 11:02
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

Yes, no rocket science but the job implies a relationship with cantonal authorities in relation to taxes, human resources and maybe something else. Knowing the applicable regulations and who to call to clarify or solve any case may the vaguely presented experience requirement.
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Old 17.12.2019, 11:31
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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By whom is this training offered? The KV or someone else?
There are a lot of private institutes such as Minerva, Benedict etc offering KV courses.
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Old 17.12.2019, 11:58
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Yes, no rocket science but the job implies a relationship with cantonal authorities in relation to taxes, human resources and maybe something else. Knowing the applicable regulations and who to call to clarify or solve any case may the vaguely presented experience requirement.

Actually my feeling is that some of this jobs imply only entering invoices in SAP etc, things for which actually a 1-week on-the-job training would technically suffice..
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Old 18.12.2019, 05:29
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Which is puzzling me. Because it is not rocket science.
The large majority of jobs aren't rocket science. Doesn't mean qualifications are not required, at the very least to get a foot in the door.

Your attitude towards these jobs is, according to your comments here, a little irritating. Why are you interested in them in the first place if you think they're inevitably mundane, boring or that essentially anyone could do them after a week anyway?

Beyond that, I haven't heard of a 6-months course that would equal a kaufmännische Ausbildung and actually be worth something. Can you provide a link to what it is you mean exactly? Some course at Benedict isn't very specific.

Normally it's an apprenticeship for several years, and I don't think you stand a chance to find that at 35 (plus I guess you wouldn't want that anyway).
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Old 18.12.2019, 07:21
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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The large majority of jobs aren't rocket science. Doesn't mean qualifications are not required, at the very least to get a foot in the door.

Your attitude towards these jobs is, according to your comments here, a little irritating. Why are you interested in them in the first place if you think they're inevitably mundane, boring or that essentially anyone could do them after a week anyway?

Beyond that, I haven't heard of a 6-months course that would equal a kaufmännische Ausbildung and actually be worth something. Can you provide a link to what it is you mean exactly? Some course at Benedict isn't very specific.

Normally it's an apprenticeship for several years, and I don't think you stand a chance to find that at 35 (plus I guess you wouldn't want that anyway).
Maybe OP would like to find out why some people get rejected even though he believes they can do that job?

I know it's hard not to pick any negative hints on an internet discussion, but maybe changing the perspective helps a little.

In my opinion, a lot of people don't understand the importance of apprenticeships here and that there is a specific type of instruction for jobs they didn't know are so strictly regulated here. Hence the stupor, why, how etc.
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Old 18.12.2019, 08:20
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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The large majority of jobs aren't rocket science. Doesn't mean qualifications are not required, at the very least to get a foot in the door.

Your attitude towards these jobs is, according to your comments here, a little irritating. Why are you interested in them in the first place if you think they're inevitably mundane, boring or that essentially anyone could do them after a week anyway?

Beyond that, I haven't heard of a 6-months course that would equal a kaufmännische Ausbildung and actually be worth something. Can you provide a link to what it is you mean exactly? Some course at Benedict isn't very specific.

Normally it's an apprenticeship for several years, and I don't think you stand a chance to find that at 35 (plus I guess you wouldn't want that anyway).

https://www.benedict.ch/handelsschul...-kaufmann-vsh/

not actually mundane, boring but very useful
however I do not see much into the skills actually *put to use* except mostly ECDL. Pardon my misunterstanding.

Last edited by memihai; 18.12.2019 at 08:31.
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Old 18.12.2019, 08:29
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Maybe OP would like to find out why some people get rejected even though he believes they can do that job?

I know it's hard not to pick any negative hints on an internet discussion, but maybe changing the perspective helps a little.

In my opinion, a lot of people don't understand the importance of apprenticeships here and that there is a specific type of instruction for jobs they didn't know are so strictly regulated here. Hence the stupor, why, how etc.
Yes, could be a cultural bias on my side. Thinking how to get easier in an office job, and trying to overcome some hurdles. Actually yes, very difficult to understand why entering some data into some form is so strictly regulated.
Please see my other post with the link with handelsdiplom VSH.

>>Maybe OP would like to find out why some people get rejected even though he believes they can do that job?
Exactly. When the job description refers to using Word, Excel and phone calls to/from customers, so basically ECDL certificate plus English/German .. you got the idea.

So...ground question... do you know anybody actually *having found* a job with such a handelsdiplom VSH?

and the comment "which is puzzling me" was referring to previous experience. how is one supposed to gather experience if almost all jobs require previous experience.

Last edited by memihai; 18.12.2019 at 08:49.
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Old 18.12.2019, 08:52
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Yes, could be a cultural bias on my side. Thinking how to get easier in an office job, and trying to overcome some hurdles. Actually yes, very difficult to understand why entering some data into some form is so strictly regulated.
Please see my other post with the link with handelsdiplom VSH.

>>Maybe OP would like to find out why some people get rejected even though he believes they can do that job?
Exactly. When the job description refers to using Word, Excel and phone calls to/from customers, so basically ECDL certificate plus English/German .. you got the idea.

So...ground question... do you know anybody finding a job with such a handelsdiplom VSH?
Are you asking me or Samaire13? I think she has more experience and is more qualified to answer with detailed info and examples.

But I give you one anecdote though - I have a Brazilian friend who followed this path (don't know which school exactly, all I know is something similar to what you're asking i.e. Handelsdiplom ) but she came here when she was like 20. Did one year of intensive/immersion German language course in Germany, speaks German flawlessly. No English actually (and no other language than Swiss German as far as I know). There are maybe more people who got this type of jobs after getting a Handelsdiplom but can't remember anyone else right now. I (personally) think it's very difficult when you're older, but not impossible.

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not actually mundane, boring but very useful
however I do not see much into the skills actually *put to use* except mostly ECDL. Pardon my misunterstanding.
If you want to be fair, that is valid for lots of jobs.

Last edited by greenmount; 18.12.2019 at 09:04.
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Old 18.12.2019, 09:08
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

Please note that a Kaufmann VSH is not the same as an actual Eidgenönnische Kaufmann. It is possible to get both simultaneously but you will have to prove at least two years work experience in a "kaufmännische Tätigkeit" ( office work). You also have to sit the same "branche " tests as young people doing a KV.
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Old 18.12.2019, 10:31
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Please note that a Kaufmann VSH is not the same as an actual Eidgenönnische Kaufmann. It is possible to get both simultaneously but you will have to prove at least two years work experience in a "kaufmännische Tätigkeit" ( office work). You also have to sit the same "branche " tests as young people doing a KV.
Yes I do fully agree, it is not the same certificate and does not have the same "weight". It is also not backed up by a practical experience of 2-3 years as in the dual system. However I think for some jobs that do not ask for the "EFZ" it should be enough proof of "Kaufmännische Ausbildung"... at least that is how I think...
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Old 18.12.2019, 11:21
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Yes I do fully agree, it is not the same certificate and does not have the same "weight". It is also not backed up by a practical experience of 2-3 years as in the dual system. However I think for some jobs that do not ask for the "EFZ" it should be enough proof of "Kaufmännische Ausbildung"... at least that is how I think...
Here - a site that might be useful

https://www.berufsberatung.ch/dyn/show/7140

Also, ask the school that is offering this qualification. How can you get some work experience/practice in the field, does the school have any partnerships, what are the chances of getting a job in your particular situation after graduating. They must have a student adviser.
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Old 19.12.2019, 10:36
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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The large majority of jobs aren't rocket science. Doesn't mean qualifications are not required, at the very least to get a foot in the door.

Your attitude towards these jobs is, according to your comments here, a little irritating. Why are you interested in them in the first place if you think they're inevitably mundane, boring or that essentially anyone could do them after a week anyway?

Beyond that, I haven't heard of a 6-months course that would equal a kaufmännische Ausbildung and actually be worth something. Can you provide a link to what it is you mean exactly? Some course at Benedict isn't very specific.

Normally it's an apprenticeship for several years, and I don't think you stand a chance to find that at 35 (plus I guess you wouldn't want that anyway).
What would one do if one had as field of activity desktop publishing and one received only rejections and not even invites to interviews? You would probably try to change field of activity and probably look for a Weiterbildung that does not require 3-4 years of studying and further unemployment.
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Old 19.12.2019, 10:37
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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Here - a site that might be useful

https://www.berufsberatung.ch/dyn/show/7140

Also, ask the school that is offering this qualification. How can you get some work experience/practice in the field, does the school have any partnerships, what are the chances of getting a job in your particular situation after graduating. They must have a student adviser.
Been here, done that. Been to both of them. Actually the student adviser would say anything just to have more students bring in their cash. He even mentioned getting a Kader position with the VSH.
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Old 24.12.2019, 02:31
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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https://www.benedict.ch/handelsschul...-kaufmann-vsh/

not actually mundane, boring but very useful
however I do not see much into the skills actually *put to use* except mostly ECDL. Pardon my misunterstanding.
Not a full-blown commercial education, but that's already been pointed out. More or less anything that VHS offers in this context is a course, not a full education. That's not to diminish the value they may bring anyway, but keep expectations in check. It's comparable to taking a language course, rather than an actual commercial education. Regardless, with zero commercial background, I can't see why it would hurt - again as long as you're being realistic. It seems more suited for people who take on additional commercial work within their existing job, to give them some foundation. Companies operating more locally will probably know the difference between this and a fully accredited KV. Those operating mainly internationally have no clue about this anyway, and are probably not on your target list. Impossible to predict whether this will help you in any way, but that goes for absolutely everything in life. No one will be able to tell you.
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Old 24.12.2019, 06:32
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Re: Kaufmännische Ausbildung

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No no other special skills. Just a few years of work experience in something completely different.
Can your "few years of work experience" be re-framed to emphasise the administrative parts (which many jobs of all sorts do have) of the positions you held?

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Most of the jobs ask however for previous experience. Which is puzzling me. ... How can one gain such an experience?
Three ways to gain such experience:
  1. Work on a voluntary (= free, unpaid) basis. This may include actual charities, but also doing the admin for a local sports club, or working in a community library or ludothek, theatre or church, in short, doing the paperwork of any kind of interest group, club or society.
  2. Take on a part-time job of another type (shop assistant, bartender, cleaner, events ground staff) and then become the team-leaser and your way up into the office.
  3. If you have any good relationships with people who would like to help you in this, you might also be given a kind favour by someone who runs any kind of club, to let you help with/do the admin, or even possibly someone who runs their own small business.

In all those cases, ask them to give you a differentiated and comprehensive written reference (which, with their permission, you could draft, yourself, for them to augment), even as a "Zwischenzeugnis" after 3 months, saying how quickly you familiarised yourself with their systems and how soon you became a very useful and much appreciated member of their small team.
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