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  #41  
Old 07.01.2020, 14:19
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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Hello to all, this is my first message in this forum. I have read it deeply with many interest.

I have been offered a position as Software Engineer (qml/C++) in the canton of Nidwalden, with 4 years experience and a gross annual salary of 70000 CHF. No bonus, no benefits, no nothing, that is all.

Regards.
If you are 20-30 years old, have a degree in computer science and 4 years experience in development, forget it, look for a real job in a real company paying a real salaries. With those three qualities you will find one, especially if you are prepared to move anywhere on the planet, I bet money on it. Believe me I speak from experience.

You need to earn as much money in IT as you can as soon as you can because your employability will significantly decrease beyond the age of 40, nay 50 when you'll be struggling to find a job in CoOp.

Companies who pay well below the market rates end up employing individuals who have no qualifications or no experience or both. I took a job that like once and worked in IT alongside a chef, a TV shop assistant and an electrical engineer [who was in fairness qualified, just not in IT]. It was very frustrating at times.

No, find a real job with a real company, paying market rate salaries to all their staff.
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  #42  
Old 07.01.2020, 14:29
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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The lack of respect comes from the fact that you totally low ball and untercut the other employees. Threatining their job and income. If the new, young guy does an as good job as the old ones making 20k - 30k more than they have to fear to be sacked and be replaced soon. Wage dumping is selfish and shortsighted. Neiter is it a respectable activity nor does it show care for others.
It would be so easy to avoid undercutting my elder colleagues if income talk were not a taboo.

Undercutting other workers may be selfish, shortsighted, not respectable and not showing care for others, but when did my new senior colleagues which were present and questioned me during the interview profited from a coffee/bathroom/cigarette break to sneak a bit of info? I asked discretely and got ZERO answers.

How do you win this game?
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  #43  
Old 07.01.2020, 14:31
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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The lack of respect comes from the fact that you totally low ball and untercut the other employees. Threatining their job and income. If the new, young guy does an as good job as the old ones making 20k - 30k more than they have to fear to be sacked and be replaced soon. Wage dumping is selfish and shortsighted. Neiter is it a respectable activity nor does it show care for others.
It's the company that lowballs the potential employee and takes advantage of someone's ignorance/inexperience or lack of options, not the other way around.....I'd channel my disrespect for that company (if indeed can afford to pay market rates and are not interested solely in cutting costs).....on the other hand it might be a question of survival for some businesses, so again situations are not always black and white.

Again. If OP accepts it at least now he knows. It's not a good offer. End of.
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  #44  
Old 07.01.2020, 14:38
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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It would be so easy to avoid undercutting my elder colleagues if income talk were not a taboo.

Undercutting other workers may be selfish, shortsighted, not respectable and not showing care for others, but when did my new senior colleagues which were present and questioned me during the interview profited from a coffee/bathroom/cigarette break to sneak a bit of info? I asked discretely and got ZERO answers.

How do you win this game?
while no one is going to tell you their salary people here do like to boast about how much they pay in rent, or how much their new house cost and how much they had to put down as a deposit (or not) and how much their car lease costs etc etc etc from there its a pretty simple calculation, eg on a 70k salary you ain't gonna get a 1m house mortgage
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  #45  
Old 07.01.2020, 14:43
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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Throwing in a half decent job in spain to come here for a (sorry) shit paid job makes no sense at all
For some people it does, because it can very well happen that the half-decent job in Spain or Italy is the best you can expect to get in your entire life, while a "shitty" paid job in CH can be the beginning of a career.

In Italy many of my friends are stressed out and afraid of losing their job and not finding another one, does not matter if they like it or not (usually not); in Switzerland I constantly see people leaving their job and finding a new one and ending up feeling better.
Different people can give different value to this difference in the social environment.
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  #46  
Old 07.01.2020, 15:01
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

I recommend negotiating a higher salary. Say that you are very interested in the position but were hoping for 90K, See if they increase their offer. In my opinion, never negotiating is bad practice and once you are in, you won't be able to negotiate.
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  #47  
Old 07.01.2020, 16:12
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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The lack of respect comes from the fact that you totally low ball and untercut the other employees.
It can cut both ways.

People may also feel threatened if you make way more than them. It makes them think you are either a super hero, or sleeping with the boss, or a backstabber, or just very sleazy at selling yourself. None of those attributes will endear you to colleagues who don't play those games.

A guy on a low salary on the other hand comes across as being a newbie who people will watch out for and give a pass if they mess something up.

Different companies have different cultures. Just because something happened in one company doesn't mean the same will happen in other companies.
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  #48  
Old 07.01.2020, 19:40
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Ask for 80K, they'll offer 75K. Take the job. Get your foot in the door, learn as much as you can, costs in the countryside are a lot cheaper than in the city. Put in 3 years, then transfer to a job in the city that pays 100K+.


Switzerland is an exclusive club to break into, and you have to pay the entry fee first. After that, you are in and the sky's the limit.
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  #49  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:01
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Hello again, very interesting discussion, even trolls have apported good answers

This morning I have requested 80K CHF, some benefits for launch and initial accomodation, and a German course. Tomorrow they will answer.

Respect to the doubts generated, I will clarify some points:

-The position is permanent. So I would get the C-perm, I suppose.

-The position is for implementing industrial software, not android apps neither fintech, etc.

-The company that offered this to me is an Italian consultancy, and based on the glassdoor comments, it is the typical meance-meat organization that sells engineers by weight. They don't mind your experience, only mind to have monkeys coding crap faster and cheaper possible. My intention is not to remain in this kind of companies, but put a feet into the country and then we will see.

-I am Senior Engineer (+15 years experience in industrial field + research experience in mathematics, not IT), but really I have been involved intensively in industrial software development since 4 years ago, in an effort for recycling; can I consider myself as Senior for the position? I don't know, but I couldn't imagine that 4 years later I will touch the door of Switzerland; for me it is a great success.

-I have worked in Spain and Italy, and I corrobore the impressions read here: good countries for tourism and retirement, but lamentably it is almost impossible to develop a career as engineer, due to low wages, scarce contracts and in general lack of opportunities; once reached a permanent position of around 30/40K€ it is very difficult to rise more.

Thanks to all for the answers. Regards.
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  #50  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:24
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Sorry, it will not be a C permit, a B to start with is more likely. C permits earliest after 5 years.
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  #51  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:27
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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Sorry, it will not be a C permit, a B to start with is more likely. C permits earliest after 4 years.
Not 5?
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  #52  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:30
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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Not 5?
Yes, 5 years.
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  #53  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:31
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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-The position is permanent. So I would get the C-perm, I suppose.
No, B, expiring in 5 years. After 5 years as EU citizen you can be upgraded to C - easy but not automatic.

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-The company that offered this to me is an Italian consultancy, and based on the glassdoor comments, it is the typical meance-meat organization that sells engineers by weight. They don't mind your experience, only mind to have monkeys coding crap faster and cheaper possible. My intention is not to remain in this kind of companies, but put a feet into the country and then we will see.
Will your employer be an Italian legal entity? Double check who pays what, and make sure you don't end up working in CH but reside and pay taxes in Italy You will want to tie your relationship with Italian tax system as soon as possible...

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-I am Senior Engineer (+15 years experience in industrial field + research experience in mathematics, not IT), but really I have been involved intensively in industrial software development since 4 years ago, in an effort for recycling; can I consider myself as Senior for the position?
Not sure about it, also depends on the details of the position and what exactly is your SW experience. E.g. if they're looking for embedded microcontroller programmers that's quite a narrow domain.

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once reached a permanent position of around 30/40K€ it is very difficult to rise more.
I don't know about Spain but 40k€ is a slurpy salary in Italy, something like 130-140kCHF in CH, IMHO.

Let us know how it goes
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  #54  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:31
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Typo, changed it, it is 5 years. Note to self: wear reading glasses when typing......
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  #55  
Old 07.01.2020, 20:52
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Hello,

well as you say, I would obtain B-permit, it has been a lapsus.

The contract will be based on Switzerland, in fact the draft contains Swiss regulations.

The position, more precisely, is Full Stack for training simulators.

Gross annual 40k€ in Spain is considered "medium/high" wage (LoL).

In lohncomputer, with gross annual 80k CHF in Nidwalden, the results are the following:
-5114 CHF net monthly salary.
-3375 CHF monthly expenses (including a good flat rent of 1381 CHF and going out for beers ).
-1738 CHF spare.
As a conclusion, being austere, conforming with a studio and without going out, I would save more than the gross salary I earned in Spain. So, a normal/medium salary in Switzerland seems to be much better than a "high wage" in Spain...

Regards.
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  #56  
Old 07.01.2020, 21:48
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

"your employability will significantly decrease beyond the age of 40, nay 50 when you'll be struggling to find a job in CoOp."

I don't necessarily agree with that, my OH came here as a contract software consultant at the end of 2015 when he was 55 and his job became permanent when he was 58. He's 60 this year and has been told by his company he may be able to work for them in some capacity beyond retirement age up to the age of 70 if his skills are still needed. The key thing is he never stops training on new things, he has a new programming language to learn this year for a new project he's heading. He's also the oldest and most experienced in his team.
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  #57  
Old 08.01.2020, 07:52
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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Hello,

well as you say, I would obtain B-permit, it has been a lapsus.

The contract will be based on Switzerland, in fact the draft contains Swiss regulations.

The position, more precisely, is Full Stack for training simulators.

Gross annual 40k€ in Spain is considered "medium/high" wage (LoL).

In lohncomputer, with gross annual 80k CHF in Nidwalden, the results are the following:
-5114 CHF net monthly salary.
-3375 CHF monthly expenses (including a good flat rent of 1381 CHF and going out for beers ).
-1738 CHF spare.
As a conclusion, being austere, conforming with a studio and without going out, I would save more than the gross salary I earned in Spain. So, a normal/medium salary in Switzerland seems to be much better than a "high wage" in Spain...

Regards.
are you sure you can spare 1738?
have you factored in the costs for car, flights/holidays, internet, mobile phone, electricity, TV (Billlag), franchise for healthcare etc?
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  #58  
Old 08.01.2020, 09:24
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

I had similar figures in central Zurich - but withouth a car and visiting the mother country by train.

And the apartment was a pidgeon cage
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  #59  
Old 08.01.2020, 16:30
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

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This morning I have requested 80K CHF, some benefits for launch and initial accomodation, and a German course. Tomorrow they will answer.
So?
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  #60  
Old 08.01.2020, 19:16
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Re: job offer: 70000 CHF as software engineer, what are your thoughts?

Hello again, the result of the negotiation:

-Offer me 78k CHF.
-Accomodation included in a hotel the 3 first weeks.
-German course: no.
-Launchs included: no.

Well, my answer would be yes, but first I would like to comment in my actual job, where I know they need me now with urgency, who knows, maybe they counter-offer an attractive salary increase.

Quote:
are you sure you can spare 1738?
have you factored in the costs for car, flights/holidays, internet, mobile phone, electricity, TV (Billlag), franchise for healthcare etc?
Sorry but I cannot be "sure at all". Figure thrown by LonhComputer indicates that it is possible to live in Nidwalden with that gross income without headaches, including all you said, why don't believe it?.

Only references are the people who lived with that and have answered here. I am an austere person by nature, so I imagine that it would be even better for me. You can check yourself:

https://www.lohncomputer.ch/en/
Monthly Gross: 6500 CHF
Age: 42
Religion: atheist
Status: single
No children
Residence: Nidwalden

Result: 1666 CHF spare.

All costs are broken down, if you think some of them are underrated, I will hear attentively.

Regards.
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