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  #21  
Old 18.01.2020, 17:55
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Then they call you because they don't like their work and want to change or they have problems in their relationships and are thinking about quitting or suddenly they want to resign because they got a new opportunity or want a massive pay raise or whatever.

This honestly sounds like a problem that neither the agency nor the client should have to think about. It also sounds downright unprofessional.


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No one would accept a 30% contract or a 100% contract for 3 months (maybe one month in November, then February and June or whatever). It wouldn't make sense.

Dunno. I know a lot of people (myself included) that would be happy with that arrangement.



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3) Networking, online research, cold calling, speaking to lots of candidates/freelancers... and lots of leads usually lead nowhere.

And that's why freelancers usually make a lot more than salaried employees - to cover the costs of doing all those things, plus the risk that come with the territory.


I don't know enough about the Swiss market, but judging by this forum, the only way to work in IT with Swiss clients is as a contractor employed by an agency. Which quite frankly, sounds very odd indeed.
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Old 18.01.2020, 18:06
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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judging by this forum, the only way to work in IT with Swiss clients is as a contractor employed by an agency. Which quite frankly, sounds very odd indeed.
Why odd?

Sounds pretty normal to me.

Tom
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  #23  
Old 18.01.2020, 18:17
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Why odd?

Sounds pretty normal to me.

Tom

Because I would assume that there is still a market for freelancers that offer their services directly to the end client, in a period ranging from a few weeks to a few months, with no intermediary between them and at a price point between an agencies and a contractors.



Yet if this forum is anything to go by, there are only two options - direct employment or not so direct employment as a contractor at an agency that then outsources your work to the actual client (even though it boils down to the same thing, at least from my perspective as an actual freelancer).
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Old 18.01.2020, 19:52
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Because I would assume that there is still a market for freelancers that offer their services directly to the end client, in a period ranging from a few weeks to a few months, with no intermediary between them and at a price point between an agencies and a contractors.
Assumptions versus facts... if you as the employer take on a contractor, then as far as the law is concerned you are their employer and they have the same entitlement as all your other employees. And you as the employer are subject to all the employer legislation, including work permits etc...

I’m not going to mention the company nor the details for obviously reasons, but a few years ago I was called to give evidence in such a case. The original 30k job ended up costing the employer a little short of 43k when the legal costs were taken into account. Basically the person had an accident while on the job and argued that they were an employee and as their ‘employer’ did not furnish they with a monthly salary statement they were entitled to assume their monthly ‘salary’ was net of the usual deductions and that the employee handbook applied to them, including the statement that they were covered for accidents. It did not help that they sent the contractor on the employee induction course!

It would have been cheaper to go with the agency rates.

When I came here 30 years ago it was possible to work directly with clients, but it has not been that way for a long time now.
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  #25  
Old 18.01.2020, 20:12
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Assumptions versus facts... if you as the employer take on a contractor, then as far as the law is concerned you are their employer and they have the same entitlement as all your other employees. And you as the employer are subject to all the employer legislation, including work permits etc...

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's like you don't even have the word "freelancer" in your dictionary. Everything is either an employee or a contractor to you. It's like the very idea of an independent professional who does occasional work for multiple companies just...doesn't exist in Switzerland.



Also, on an unrelated note, what foul sorcery have you used that I can't quote your posts?
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  #26  
Old 18.01.2020, 20:27
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's like you don't even have the word "freelancer" in your dictionary. Everything is either an employee or a contractor to you. It's like the very idea of an independent professional who does occasional work for multiple companies just...doesn't exist in Switzerland.

So find work elsewhere if you don't like the way it is done in Switzerland
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  #27  
Old 18.01.2020, 20:38
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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So find work elsewhere if you don't like the way it is done in Switzerland

It's not so much that I don't "like" the way it's done, it's that it simply beggars belief that Switzerland is the only country (or more accurately - the only one I ever heard of) that simply outright refuses to work with individual freelancers on account of this.



Laws against "hidden employment" exist in pretty much every developed country and that hasn't stopped individual freelancers from offering their services there. Why is Switzerland so different in this regard?
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  #28  
Old 18.01.2020, 20:58
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. It's like you don't even have the word "freelancer" in your dictionary. Everything is either an employee or a contractor to you. It's like the very idea of an independent professional who does occasional work for multiple companies just...doesn't exist in Switzerland.
Of course there are plenty of professionals carrying out work on behalf of various clients, they are just not mascaraing as employees. Your impressions of Switzerland seem to be very limited in deed.
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  #29  
Old 18.01.2020, 21:18
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Of course there are plenty of professionals carrying out work on behalf of various clients, they are just not mascaraing as employees. Your impressions of Switzerland seem to be very limited in deed.



Glad to hear it! So why does every thread about non-employees seem to devolve into discussion about contractors and how Swiss companies only work with preferred suppliers or through a chain of middlemen?
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  #30  
Old 21.01.2020, 12:59
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

if you are looking for a contract/freelance jobs in Switzerland you have usually no other choice than to find one via an agency. But you should carfully choose the right ones. You should avoid agencies that

- have no local branch.
- are not transparent, i.e. do not disclose the rates that they will charge to the client or do not show you the details of decuctions and pension contributions.
- have no preferred supplier status at the company in question.
- don't throw CV's like spaghetti at the clients wall and hope one sticks.
- spam you with emails for positions that do not match your skills/criterias.
- contact you every year and each time it's a different recruiter on the phone
- ask you to write a summary of arguments/reasons that qualify you for the job in question (e.g. automate the recruiters selling process).
- propose you for positions that are listed on jobs.ch as permanent positions
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  #31  
Old 21.01.2020, 13:07
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Glad to hear it! So why does every thread about non-employees seem to devolve into discussion about contractors and how Swiss companies only work with preferred suppliers or through a chain of middlemen?
People who ask the questions you are asking lack the network and experience to be able to run a proper business as independent contractor, so for now just forget about it. If in some years you got to know customers who are willing to use the by you preferred construction and you gained a better knowledge of the market you could give it another thought.
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  #32  
Old 21.01.2020, 14:17
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It's not so much that I don't "like" the way it's done, it's that it simply beggars belief that Switzerland is the only country (or more accurately - the only one I ever heard of) that simply outright refuses to work with individual freelancers on account of this.

The client simply doesn't want the shit that goes with it.



If he hires you, unless you have other proven and billable clients he will be on the hook for the social payments.


Clients just can't be bothered with all this extra crap, so much easy to outsource it to a body shop, end of story for the client, doesn't cost muich more and saves a lot of trouble later on.


You understand now ?
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  #33  
Old 21.01.2020, 14:44
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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2) why the agencies have to search for such projects and I do not see ANY contract jobs advertised by the smaller clients. If I was a such client and needed an external employee for a specific task, I would rather give it a try so search them
Small clients go through agencies for the same reason big clients do, which are explained in previous posts.
I worked in a small company as IT and we had to fight to get the bosses NOT go through an agency - we thought their preselection of candidates was not effective. We had to convince them that in our case the savings on the IT team were bigger than the extra cost for the HR people.
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  #34  
Old 21.01.2020, 15:07
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Glad to hear it! So why does every thread about non-employees seem to devolve into discussion about contractors and how Swiss companies only work with preferred suppliers or through a chain of middlemen?
Tell us the difference between employing a contractor and a non employee then in terms of social security law, work permits and pension benefits. When we understand your understanding perhaps someone can have a go at answering your question.
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  #35  
Old 21.01.2020, 15:19
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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If he hires you, unless you have other proven and billable clients he will be on the hook for the social payments.
Actually the few I now that do take on contractors directly, will contact the AHV guys and ask for a statement saying that it is OK to take you on and that they will not be on the hook for additional social payments etc... - the answer is almost always NO.
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  #36  
Old 21.01.2020, 18:06
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

To be accepted by the AHV guys the contractor has to found a limited liability company.



https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home.../llc-sarl.html


costs about 2000-3000 CHF. You must prove that you have capital of 20000 CHF that after the act of foundation this money can be used by your company.



Many tax advantages:

- You can deduct rental cost of one room of your apartment

- investment in hardware (computer, phones, books etc).
- internet, phone costs (what is business related)
- business lunches
- cost of entertainment (suits, ...)

- business travel
- setup of your homepage
- etc.
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Old 21.01.2020, 18:27
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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To be accepted by the AHV guys the contractor has to found a limited liability company.



https://www.kmu.admin.ch/kmu/en/home.../llc-sarl.html


costs about 2000-3000 CHF. You must prove that you have capital of 20000 CHF that after the act of foundation this money can be used by your company.



Many tax advantages:

- You can deduct rental cost of one room of your apartment

- investment in hardware (computer, phones, books etc).
- internet, phone costs (what is business related)
- business lunches
- cost of entertainment (suits, ...)

- business travel
- setup of your homepage
- etc.
Put if you are body shopping and the OP would be, your company also has to meet the same rules as any agency... and while I have not been involved in the recent past, it used to be expensive. Given that many of the UK agencies piggy back of already existing Swiss agents and I now two Swiss guys with one-man companies that do the same, I assume it is still the case.
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  #38  
Old 22.01.2020, 13:52
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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You understand now ?

If you're trying to tell me that Switzerland has the most conservative and risk-averse clients in the world, then yes. Otherwise, no.


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Tell us the difference between employing a contractor and a non employee then in terms of social security law, work permits and pension benefits. When we understand your understanding perhaps someone can have a go at answering your question.

The difference is that whoever employs the contractor is responsible for those things. A freelancer is responsible for those things himself plus all the other things an employer usually provides (a place to do the job and the equipment to do it with, chasing down non-paying clients, finding clients, etc).
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Old 22.01.2020, 14:30
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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Put if you are body shopping and the OP would be, your company also has to meet the same rules as any agency...
Depends on Kanton.
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  #40  
Old 22.01.2020, 14:46
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Re: IT Contractors - why an agency has to be involved? Let's find projects directly

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The difference is that whoever employs the contractor is responsible for those things. A freelancer is responsible for those things himself plus all the other things an employer usually provides (a place to do the job and the equipment to do it with, chasing down non-paying clients, finding clients, etc).
There is NO difference between a contractor and a freelancer, the terms are interchangeable.

What you are talking about is self employed/one man company and to meet that criteria in Switzerland, Ireland, the UK etc... you must simultaneously service several clients, not one at time. And as I have already said there are plenty such firms in Switzerland. And there is nothing stopping you from doing the same so long as you can find multiple clients to satisfy the legal requirements.
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