 | | | 
27.01.2020, 17:20
| Junior Member | | Join Date: Nov 2019 Location: Vaud
Posts: 77
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 27 Times in 19 Posts
| | Lay offs and consultation
My company have announced they want to make a number of layoffs, and have announced a period of consultation. My question is - do they need to make any lay offs ‘fair’, by using set criteria for example, or are they within their rights just to choose who they don’t want? What’s the ‘consultation’ for if they can do this? Thanks in advance for any answers
| 
27.01.2020, 17:32
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
they can lay off anyone they like, doesn't have to be 'fair' in my experience its either the oldest (in age) or most expensive (been there the longest) who are out first.
also (in my experience) the 'consultation' period is just a box ticking exercise
Sucks to be in that situation waiting to find out if you're the lucky one | The following 4 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post: | | 
27.01.2020, 17:38
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
just to add, they only have to do a consultation if they are laying off > X% (sorry I don't remember the number) of the workforce, so they have pretty much already decided who's out otherwise they wouldn't know its over that | The following 3 users would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post: | | 
27.01.2020, 17:54
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
They are obliged to when laying off more than a certainpercentage of the workforce or above a certain number, which is far less than the 265 announced by Phillip Morris today
Consultation doesn't really do much apart from keep the politicians and unions in good sound bites for the press and media.
The decision has been made long ago that 265 of you are going.
| The following 3 users would like to thank for this useful post: | | 
27.01.2020, 17:59
|  | Roastbeef & Yorkshire mod | | Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Neuchâtel
Posts: 14,007
Groaned at 268 Times in 227 Posts
Thanked 23,845 Times in 9,727 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
Ah but 60% of those will be transferred to other locations.
Total BS of course as I can’t see many people wanting to move to those places unless they get to keep their Swiss salaries.
It is considerably fewer than the 350 lay offs that they had announced in December.
| This user would like to thank Belgianmum for this useful post: | | 
27.01.2020, 18:09
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Aug 2015 Location: Zurich
Posts: 5,696
Groaned at 407 Times in 225 Posts
Thanked 6,523 Times in 2,995 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
It really depends on the company, and their social policies for firing people.
Legally, as mentioned by another poster, a large dissolution of workplaces is covered by law from companies having more than 250 employees. If 30+ employees lose their jobs, then they will be entitled to compensation. Otherwise I believe that there is no obligated legal compensation one can claim - so anyone can be fired with the contractual termination rights, usually between 1 and 3 months.
But, it really does depend on the company. Some are very sensitive to operational and reputation risk when firing more employees, and will come to an agreement based on individual cases, including age, time within the company etc.
Here some additional info: https://www.beobachter.ch/arbeit/arb...nen-sozialplan | This user would like to thank ZuriRollt for this useful post: | | 
30.01.2020, 09:01
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: Zurich
Posts: 990
Groaned at 1 Time in 1 Post
Thanked 1,258 Times in 558 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
Details on how mass redundancies are handled by law: https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...dex.html#a335d | This user would like to thank Mica for this useful post: | | 
30.01.2020, 09:22
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,384
Groaned at 73 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 6,131 Times in 2,894 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
Strangely, it's a nice gesture from management. You may start looking for a new job or unemployment benefits.
It would be worse to anyone to get fired without any kind of warning.
| 
30.01.2020, 10:00
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Glarus
Posts: 8,082
Groaned at 484 Times in 403 Posts
Thanked 14,715 Times in 5,780 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | Strangely, it's a nice gesture from management. You may start looking for a new job or unemployment benefits.
It would be worse to anyone to get fired without any kind of warning. | | | | | lol you recon??
Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay?
| This user would like to thank bigblue2 for this useful post: | | 
30.01.2020, 10:42
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Kt. Bern
Posts: 5,164
Groaned at 295 Times in 221 Posts
Thanked 8,406 Times in 3,712 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay? | | | | | Except they don’t have to pay and they don’t.
If you were let go by a certain big bank at the beginning of the last recession you got a three or six month ‘consultation’ period during which a few did find new positions, a three to six month notice period taken as gardening leave, a redundancy package based on service and an education allowance of 8k. By the end of the recession they were quietly letting people go on contract notice period with a thank you very much for your service.
The days of the big payout is over. A
__________________
"There is no passion to be found playing small - in settling for a life that is less than the one you are capable of living." - Nelson Mandela
| This user would like to thank Jim2007 for this useful post: | | 
30.01.2020, 11:34
|  | Forum Legend | | Join Date: Oct 2019 Location: Suhr, Aargau
Posts: 4,384
Groaned at 73 Times in 68 Posts
Thanked 6,131 Times in 2,894 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | lol you recon??
Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay? | | | | | The only compensation payment you can expect today is for abusive dismissals (licenciement abusif) https://www.lausanne.ch/en/vie-prati...e-travail.html
There's one example about an abusive dismissal during a reorganization:
"The Federal Court considered that the termination of the employment contract was abusive with regard to an agent over 50 years old, in favor of a very long service relationship in a specialized field, pronounced within the framework of a reorganization which was a means for dismissing him and not an end in itself, his place having been redefined and not really eliminated."
There are compensations in some cases of abusive dismissals, but they come after winning a lawsuit. The exception are garden leaves for higher levels of management, but OP has no said anything about it.
| 
01.05.2021, 05:05
| Newbie | | Join Date: May 2021 Location: Vaud
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
I would appreciate your feedback on below very recent case I had:
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018. My total service in this company is around 14 years.
My company has announced a consulation process for my function early this year. In the earlier phases of this process (last year), a comitte was establised from employees to represent them against company management and this comittee has negotiated on a plan called Social Plan in the earlier phases of consultation process which also applies to our phase.
Earlier this year, company management came up with a proposed organization chart in which my position was shown to be relocated to country X while last week in an individual meeting while closing consultation I was asked to return to my own country as local to do the same job. Neither me nor Comittee was notified about this change during the Consultation process.
On top of that, normally a number of local roles were planned to be created in Switzerland for which all impacted employees (including me) were supposed to be subject to a people placement process having equal chances of getting it. But during my interview I understood this was not done for me as they directly wanted to return my position to my home country. In the exit meeting I was supposed to be told the reason why I was not considered for a local role - but they did not. So they did not do what they have committed in the social plan.
Finally,according to this social plan if you are offered a non equivalent job, then you have the option to get a special package to leave the company if you are not ok with what is proposed. And one clear criteria to qualify for a non equivalent job was change of the location of the job. In my case, even though I was offered to be relocated to my home country,which is obviously a change of location for the job and should qualify to be a non equivalent job, I was told that I do not qualify for Social Plan benefits as I am being returned to my home country. So in other words, you do qualiy for non equivalent if you are moving from City X to Y in Switzerland but not from Switzerland to my home country...
Now the question is, what should I do? I mean should I open a case in the court, cancel my own contract due to abusive dismissal, raise to comittee etc...What is the probability of me getting a positive outcome?
| 
01.05.2021, 15:42
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
I do not know your cases however have and look here - perhaps it be of some help https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/hr/ma...-pitfalls.html
and I'd imagine there be more questions whenever you are here on temporary contract basis , type of permit (L/B/C) etc as that all play a role.
Consider whenever it is better for you to ask for packadge and look for a new job or accept return and see whenever you can get back here in year or two - it all depends on your private situation and 'what next' is on your horizon.
Myself I could imagine myself returning at year 3 of being in Switzerland - that all changes with family situation over time ..so each case be different.
| 
01.05.2021, 15:54
| Senior Member | | Join Date: Oct 2020 Location: Lausanne
Posts: 343
Groaned at 21 Times in 12 Posts
Thanked 404 Times in 187 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | I would appreciate your feedback on below very recent case I had:
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018. My total service in this company is around 14 years.
My company has announced a consulation process for my function early this year. In the earlier phases of this process (last year), a comitte was establised from employees to represent them against company management and this comittee has negotiated on a plan called Social Plan in the earlier phases of consultation process which also applies to our phase.
Earlier this year, company management came up with a proposed organization chart in which my position was shown to be relocated to country X while last week in an individual meeting while closing consultation I was asked to return to my own country as local to do the same job. Neither me nor Comittee was notified about this change during the Consultation process.
On top of that, normally a number of local roles were planned to be created in Switzerland for which all impacted employees (including me) were supposed to be subject to a people placement process having equal chances of getting it. But during my interview I understood this was not done for me as they directly wanted to return my position to my home country. In the exit meeting I was supposed to be told the reason why I was not considered for a local role - but they did not. So they did not do what they have committed in the social plan.
Finally,according to this social plan if you are offered a non equivalent job, then you have the option to get a special package to leave the company if you are not ok with what is proposed. And one clear criteria to qualify for a non equivalent job was change of the location of the job. In my case, even though I was offered to be relocated to my home country,which is obviously a change of location for the job and should qualify to be a non equivalent job, I was told that I do not qualify for Social Plan benefits as I am being returned to my home country. So in other words, you do qualiy for non equivalent if you are moving from City X to Y in Switzerland but not from Switzerland to my home country...
Now the question is, what should I do? I mean should I open a case in the court, cancel my own contract due to abusive dismissal, raise to comittee etc...What is the probability of me getting a positive outcome? | | | | | Your job might be qualified as equivalent. You get to keep your position, just in another country.
I am not sure you have a valid case, nor that this is an abusive dismissal; in Switzerland they could just give you your notice period and don't have to offer anything in return. Basically, they could just say that your position in Switzerland got cancelled.
What did your committee say? Maybe you have some special policies in your company?
I don't need to know where you are working, but I wonder who are those international companies that are announcing massive layoffs as nothing has been mentioned in the local newspapers | 
01.05.2021, 15:59
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: na
Posts: 11,462
Groaned at 37 Times in 33 Posts
Thanked 27,303 Times in 8,426 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | I
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018. | | | | | Could you clarify your status with the company in Switzerland?
As in, were you sent here on assignment, and if so, what were the terms of the assignment? (For instance, sent here to do X role, for Y time period?)
| This user would like to thank meloncollie for this useful post: | | 
01.05.2021, 18:23
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,497
Groaned at 54 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 2,359 Times in 1,171 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
What is your home country from which you still hold a valid contract? You may have more chances of a claim there if it's an employee friendly one.
| 
01.05.2021, 22:37
| Forum Legend | | Join Date: Jul 2020 Location: Up there over the fog
Posts: 3,701
Groaned at 431 Times in 322 Posts
Thanked 3,754 Times in 1,955 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation
Johnson and Johnson in La Chaux-de-Fonds and Neuchâtel (NE) are making a lot of people redundant- moving jobs to Costa Rica and Mexico. The authorities and Unions are furious (as well as the workers!) that J&J are refusing all consultation and social plan preparation with authorities and Unions, as they claim that the numbers made redundant are split amng different parts of the Company- and are therefore, per each group, below the % which requires consultation. They are certainly not covering themselves in glory! This especially as (as so often the case) they were given loads of tax cuts, and tons of tax payers' money poured into helping with infrastructure, etc.
Last edited by JackieH; 01.05.2021 at 23:05.
| 
02.05.2021, 03:22
| Newbie | | Join Date: May 2021 Location: Vaud
Posts: 2
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | What is your home country from which you still hold a valid contract? You may have more chances of a claim there if it's an employee friendly one. | | | | |
My home country is Turkey and since I am a delegated expat, I think I no longer have ties with my home affiliate. The problem is, when you are delegated expat you are neither taken as a regular employee by your ex and new employer, you are somehow left between. I don't know whom I should fight with unless they satisfy my demands.
| 
02.05.2021, 03:54
|  | Forum Veteran | | Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Switzerland
Posts: 2,497
Groaned at 54 Times in 40 Posts
Thanked 2,359 Times in 1,171 Posts
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | My home country is Turkey and since I am a delegated expat, I think I no longer have ties with my home affiliate. The problem is, when you are delegated expat you are neither taken as a regular employee by your ex and new employer, you are somehow left between. I don't know whom I should fight with unless they satisfy my demands. | | | | | Delegate expat is probably an internal term. Did you rescind the contract you have with the Turkish entity or not? If not then you are still employed there but I don't know much about Turkish employment law to know if this is beneficial or not.
| This user would like to thank kri for this useful post: | | 
02.05.2021, 13:09
| | Re: Lay offs and consultation | Quote: | |  | | | Johnson and Johnson in La Chaux-de-Fonds and Neuchâtel (NE) are making a lot of people redundant- moving jobs to Costa Rica and Mexico. The authorities and Unions are furious (as well as the workers!) that J&J are refusing all consultation and social plan preparation with authorities and Unions, as they claim that the numbers made redundant are split amng different parts of the Company- and are therefore, per each group, below the % which requires consultation. They are certainly not covering themselves in glory! This especially as (as so often the case) they were given loads of tax cuts, and tons of tax payers' money poured into helping with infrastructure, etc. | | | | | mass layoffs are based on company size (employees) and relative amount of dismissals in 30-days period - nothing to do whenever it be janitor or scientist.
‘mass dismissals’ (art. 335d CO):
10 employees in a business usually employing more than 20 and less than 100 employees
10 percent of the workforce in a business usually employing more than 100 and less than 300 employees
30 employees in a business employing more than 300 employees.
and consultations must be done .
| This user would like to thank for this useful post: | |
Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests) | | Thread Tools | | Display Modes | Linear Mode |
Posting Rules
| You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts HTML code is Off | | | All times are GMT +2. The time now is 08:18. | |