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Old 27.01.2020, 17:20
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Lay offs and consultation

My company have announced they want to make a number of layoffs, and have announced a period of consultation. My question is - do they need to make any lay offs ‘fair’, by using set criteria for example, or are they within their rights just to choose who they don’t want? What’s the ‘consultation’ for if they can do this? Thanks in advance for any answers
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Old 27.01.2020, 17:32
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

they can lay off anyone they like, doesn't have to be 'fair' in my experience its either the oldest (in age) or most expensive (been there the longest) who are out first.

also (in my experience) the 'consultation' period is just a box ticking exercise

Sucks to be in that situation waiting to find out if you're the lucky one
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Old 27.01.2020, 17:38
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

just to add, they only have to do a consultation if they are laying off > X% (sorry I don't remember the number) of the workforce, so they have pretty much already decided who's out otherwise they wouldn't know its over that
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Old 27.01.2020, 17:54
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

They are obliged to when laying off more than a certainpercentage of the workforce or above a certain number, which is far less than the 265 announced by Phillip Morris today


Consultation doesn't really do much apart from keep the politicians and unions in good sound bites for the press and media.


The decision has been made long ago that 265 of you are going.
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Old 27.01.2020, 17:59
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

Ah but 60% of those will be transferred to other locations.
Total BS of course as I can’t see many people wanting to move to those places unless they get to keep their Swiss salaries.

It is considerably fewer than the 350 lay offs that they had announced in December.
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Old 27.01.2020, 18:09
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

It really depends on the company, and their social policies for firing people.

Legally, as mentioned by another poster, a large dissolution of workplaces is covered by law from companies having more than 250 employees. If 30+ employees lose their jobs, then they will be entitled to compensation. Otherwise I believe that there is no obligated legal compensation one can claim - so anyone can be fired with the contractual termination rights, usually between 1 and 3 months.

But, it really does depend on the company. Some are very sensitive to operational and reputation risk when firing more employees, and will come to an agreement based on individual cases, including age, time within the company etc.

Here some additional info:

https://www.beobachter.ch/arbeit/arb...nen-sozialplan
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Old 30.01.2020, 09:01
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

Details on how mass redundancies are handled by law:
https://www.admin.ch/opc/en/classifi...dex.html#a335d
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Old 30.01.2020, 09:22
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

Strangely, it's a nice gesture from management. You may start looking for a new job or unemployment benefits.



It would be worse to anyone to get fired without any kind of warning.
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Old 30.01.2020, 10:00
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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Strangely, it's a nice gesture from management. You may start looking for a new job or unemployment benefits.



It would be worse to anyone to get fired without any kind of warning.
lol you recon??

Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay?
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Old 30.01.2020, 10:42
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay?
Except they don’t have to pay and they don’t.

If you were let go by a certain big bank at the beginning of the last recession you got a three or six month ‘consultation’ period during which a few did find new positions, a three to six month notice period taken as gardening leave, a redundancy package based on service and an education allowance of 8k. By the end of the recession they were quietly letting people go on contract notice period with a thank you very much for your service.

The days of the big payout is over. A
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Old 30.01.2020, 11:34
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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lol you recon??

Or you think its more to make people look for a new job so they don't have to lay them off and pay?
The only compensation payment you can expect today is for abusive dismissals (licenciement abusif) https://www.lausanne.ch/en/vie-prati...e-travail.html

There's one example about an abusive dismissal during a reorganization:

"The Federal Court considered that the termination of the employment contract was abusive with regard to an agent over 50 years old, in favor of a very long service relationship in a specialized field, pronounced within the framework of a reorganization which was a means for dismissing him and not an end in itself, his place having been redefined and not really eliminated."

There are compensations in some cases of abusive dismissals, but they come after winning a lawsuit. The exception are garden leaves for higher levels of management, but OP has no said anything about it.
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Old 01.05.2021, 05:05
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

I would appreciate your feedback on below very recent case I had:
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018. My total service in this company is around 14 years.
My company has announced a consulation process for my function early this year. In the earlier phases of this process (last year), a comitte was establised from employees to represent them against company management and this comittee has negotiated on a plan called Social Plan in the earlier phases of consultation process which also applies to our phase.
Earlier this year, company management came up with a proposed organization chart in which my position was shown to be relocated to country X while last week in an individual meeting while closing consultation I was asked to return to my own country as local to do the same job. Neither me nor Comittee was notified about this change during the Consultation process.
On top of that, normally a number of local roles were planned to be created in Switzerland for which all impacted employees (including me) were supposed to be subject to a people placement process having equal chances of getting it. But during my interview I understood this was not done for me as they directly wanted to return my position to my home country. In the exit meeting I was supposed to be told the reason why I was not considered for a local role - but they did not. So they did not do what they have committed in the social plan.
Finally,according to this social plan if you are offered a non equivalent job, then you have the option to get a special package to leave the company if you are not ok with what is proposed. And one clear criteria to qualify for a non equivalent job was change of the location of the job. In my case, even though I was offered to be relocated to my home country,which is obviously a change of location for the job and should qualify to be a non equivalent job, I was told that I do not qualify for Social Plan benefits as I am being returned to my home country. So in other words, you do qualiy for non equivalent if you are moving from City X to Y in Switzerland but not from Switzerland to my home country...
Now the question is, what should I do? I mean should I open a case in the court, cancel my own contract due to abusive dismissal, raise to comittee etc...What is the probability of me getting a positive outcome?
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Old 01.05.2021, 15:42
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

I do not know your cases however have and look here - perhaps it be of some help

https://www.pwc.ch/en/insights/hr/ma...-pitfalls.html

and I'd imagine there be more questions whenever you are here on temporary contract basis , type of permit (L/B/C) etc as that all play a role.

Consider whenever it is better for you to ask for packadge and look for a new job or accept return and see whenever you can get back here in year or two - it all depends on your private situation and 'what next' is on your horizon.

Myself I could imagine myself returning at year 3 of being in Switzerland - that all changes with family situation over time ..so each case be different.
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Old 01.05.2021, 15:54
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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I would appreciate your feedback on below very recent case I had:
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018. My total service in this company is around 14 years.
My company has announced a consulation process for my function early this year. In the earlier phases of this process (last year), a comitte was establised from employees to represent them against company management and this comittee has negotiated on a plan called Social Plan in the earlier phases of consultation process which also applies to our phase.
Earlier this year, company management came up with a proposed organization chart in which my position was shown to be relocated to country X while last week in an individual meeting while closing consultation I was asked to return to my own country as local to do the same job. Neither me nor Comittee was notified about this change during the Consultation process.
On top of that, normally a number of local roles were planned to be created in Switzerland for which all impacted employees (including me) were supposed to be subject to a people placement process having equal chances of getting it. But during my interview I understood this was not done for me as they directly wanted to return my position to my home country. In the exit meeting I was supposed to be told the reason why I was not considered for a local role - but they did not. So they did not do what they have committed in the social plan.
Finally,according to this social plan if you are offered a non equivalent job, then you have the option to get a special package to leave the company if you are not ok with what is proposed. And one clear criteria to qualify for a non equivalent job was change of the location of the job. In my case, even though I was offered to be relocated to my home country,which is obviously a change of location for the job and should qualify to be a non equivalent job, I was told that I do not qualify for Social Plan benefits as I am being returned to my home country. So in other words, you do qualiy for non equivalent if you are moving from City X to Y in Switzerland but not from Switzerland to my home country...
Now the question is, what should I do? I mean should I open a case in the court, cancel my own contract due to abusive dismissal, raise to comittee etc...What is the probability of me getting a positive outcome?
Your job might be qualified as equivalent. You get to keep your position, just in another country.

I am not sure you have a valid case, nor that this is an abusive dismissal; in Switzerland they could just give you your notice period and don't have to offer anything in return. Basically, they could just say that your position in Switzerland got cancelled.

What did your committee say? Maybe you have some special policies in your company?

I don't need to know where you are working, but I wonder who are those international companies that are announcing massive layoffs as nothing has been mentioned in the local newspapers
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Old 01.05.2021, 15:59
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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I
I am a delegated expat, residing in Switzerland since beg 2018.
Could you clarify your status with the company in Switzerland?

As in, were you sent here on assignment, and if so, what were the terms of the assignment? (For instance, sent here to do X role, for Y time period?)
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Old 01.05.2021, 18:23
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

What is your home country from which you still hold a valid contract? You may have more chances of a claim there if it's an employee friendly one.
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Old 01.05.2021, 22:37
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

Johnson and Johnson in La Chaux-de-Fonds and Neuchâtel (NE) are making a lot of people redundant- moving jobs to Costa Rica and Mexico. The authorities and Unions are furious (as well as the workers!) that J&J are refusing all consultation and social plan preparation with authorities and Unions, as they claim that the numbers made redundant are split amng different parts of the Company- and are therefore, per each group, below the % which requires consultation. They are certainly not covering themselves in glory! This especially as (as so often the case) they were given loads of tax cuts, and tons of tax payers' money poured into helping with infrastructure, etc.

Last edited by JackieH; 01.05.2021 at 23:05.
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Old 02.05.2021, 03:22
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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What is your home country from which you still hold a valid contract? You may have more chances of a claim there if it's an employee friendly one.

My home country is Turkey and since I am a delegated expat, I think I no longer have ties with my home affiliate. The problem is, when you are delegated expat you are neither taken as a regular employee by your ex and new employer, you are somehow left between. I don't know whom I should fight with unless they satisfy my demands.
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Old 02.05.2021, 03:54
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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My home country is Turkey and since I am a delegated expat, I think I no longer have ties with my home affiliate. The problem is, when you are delegated expat you are neither taken as a regular employee by your ex and new employer, you are somehow left between. I don't know whom I should fight with unless they satisfy my demands.
Delegate expat is probably an internal term. Did you rescind the contract you have with the Turkish entity or not? If not then you are still employed there but I don't know much about Turkish employment law to know if this is beneficial or not.
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Old 02.05.2021, 13:09
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Re: Lay offs and consultation

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Johnson and Johnson in La Chaux-de-Fonds and Neuchâtel (NE) are making a lot of people redundant- moving jobs to Costa Rica and Mexico. The authorities and Unions are furious (as well as the workers!) that J&J are refusing all consultation and social plan preparation with authorities and Unions, as they claim that the numbers made redundant are split amng different parts of the Company- and are therefore, per each group, below the % which requires consultation. They are certainly not covering themselves in glory! This especially as (as so often the case) they were given loads of tax cuts, and tons of tax payers' money poured into helping with infrastructure, etc.
mass layoffs are based on company size (employees) and relative amount of dismissals in 30-days period - nothing to do whenever it be janitor or scientist.

‘mass dismissals’ (art. 335d CO):

10 employees in a business usually employing more than 20 and less than 100 employees
10 percent of the workforce in a business usually employing more than 100 and less than 300 employees
30 employees in a business employing more than 300 employees.

and consultations must be done .
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