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Old 08.02.2020, 13:42
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Re: Employment lawyers

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not quite sure you understand how little rights you have here

you can be fired here at any time for no reason, in fact its better from HR's point of view if no reason is given then they have nothing to worry about.

Just a you're no longer required, don't come in again, you're on gardening leave
for the X months notice period your contract says, and that's it, you're out the door and there is nothing you can do about it.
Do you have a right to demand to work during your notice period or can an employer force garden leave on you?
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  #22  
Old 08.02.2020, 14:01
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Do you have a right to demand to work during your notice period or can an employer force garden leave on you?
It is up to your employer and in any case why in heavens name would you want to continue working some place you are not wanted.
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  #23  
Old 08.02.2020, 14:05
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Re: Employment lawyers

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It is up to your employer and in any case why in heavens name would you want to continue working some place you are not wanted.
Don't rush to judgment Jimbo - there could be several reasons, for instance:
- in some professions you must keep your skills/contacts very up to date
- you could use being in the office as leverage to negotiate a severance over and above any contractual or legal minimum
- you are professional and want to take credit for your work
- your wife is a complete bitch and being at work is more enjoyable
- etc.
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Old 08.02.2020, 16:14
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Don't rush to judgment Jimbo - there could be several reasons, for instance:
- in some professions you must keep your skills/contacts very up to date
- you could use being in the office as leverage to negotiate a severance over and above any contractual or legal minimum
- you are professional and want to take credit for your work
- your wife is a complete bitch and being at work is more enjoyable
- etc.
Forget negotiating severance pay... there is no legal requirement (only in mass redundancies maybe)
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Old 08.02.2020, 16:31
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Forget negotiating severance pay... there is no legal requirement (only in mass redundancies maybe)
You are clearly inexperienced.

In many countries you DO have a right to come to work and continuing to come to work (i.e. rejecting going on garden leave) is a very good lever to negotiate $$$ as - once a company decides they want to kick you out - they don't like you hanging around the office.

So, if you have no clue what you are talking about, please let somebody else answer my question.
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  #26  
Old 08.02.2020, 16:34
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Re: Employment lawyers

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You are clearly inexperienced.

In many countries you DO have a right to come to work and continuing to come to work (i.e. rejecting going on garden leave) is a very good lever to negotiate $$$ as - once a company decides they want to kick you out - they don't like you hanging around the office.

So, if you have no clue what you are talking about, please let somebody else answer my question.
And if you do not stop trolling you can ask for a time out?

in Switzerland there is no right to severance pay unless in some very few circumstances. What happens in other countries is irrelevant here.....
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Old 08.02.2020, 16:38
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Re: Employment lawyers

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And if you do not stop trolling you can ask for a time out?

in Switzerland there is no right to severance pay unless in some very few circumstances. What happens in other countries is irrelevant here.....
I did not ask about right to severance pay. I asked about right to work (i.e. show up during your notice period). Having that right gives substantial leverage to negotiate a severance (i.e. "I will leave now quietly but in return you have to give me $$$").

And regardless of the Swiss law I have seen MANY execs (also in CH) leave with $$$ in excess of the bare minimum legal / contractual requirements and the reason was almost always because they had leverage points.
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  #28  
Old 08.02.2020, 20:28
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Re: Employment lawyers

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And regardless of the Swiss law I have seen MANY execs (also in CH) leave with $$$ in excess of the bare minimum legal / contractual requirements and the reason was almost always because they had leverage points.
I'd be interested in knowing how those cases worked, of which you know. Could you give examples, please?

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I did not ask about right to severance pay. I asked about right to work (i.e. show up during your notice period). Having that right gives substantial leverage to negotiate a severance (i.e. "I will leave now quietly but in return you have to give me $$$").
No, I think there is no right at all for an employee to show up at the premises of the employer after having been told not to do so. As far as I understand it, any employer is entitled to bar any employee from the premises, with immediate effect. In fact, anyone at all is allowed to pronounce a so-called "Hausverbot" (barring from the house) over anyone at all.

The obligation of the employer lies only in paying the agreed remuneration for the duration of the notice period as defined in the contract or, failing such a clause, of the law. The employer does not have to open the door ever again, to let the employee in.

Moreover, "I will leave now quietly...", in the way you put it, does not sound like any negotiation leverage, but simply like blackmail or a threat. But with no clout, for if the employee will not leave the premises as instructed by the employer, the employer can simply call the police, who will remove the employee, forcibly if need be. No sweat. No trouble for the employer, only for the employee.
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  #29  
Old 08.02.2020, 22:32
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Don't rush to judgment Jimbo - there could be several reasons, for instance:
- in some professions you must keep your skills/contacts very up to date
- you could use being in the office as leverage to negotiate a severance over and above any contractual or legal minimum
- you are professional and want to take credit for your work
- your wife is a complete bitch and being at work is more enjoyable
- etc.
You obviously have a lot to learn.

1. Would be illegal and depending on your employer could result in a criminal complaint
2. They can kick you out with nothing provided thy observer the notice period
3. Take credit for work at am employer who wants shot of you...
4. Your problem

Bottom line you exit when told or possibly why security escorts you of the premises.
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  #30  
Old 08.02.2020, 22:35
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Re: Employment lawyers

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And regardless of the Swiss law I have seen MANY execs (also in CH) leave with $$$ in excess of the bare minimum legal / contractual requirements and the reason was almost always because they had leverage points.
Nope you have not, your posts tell us you are not in their league.
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  #31  
Old 09.02.2020, 22:40
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Re: Employment lawyers

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You obviously have a lot to learn.

1. Would be illegal and depending on your employer could result in a criminal complaint
2. They can kick you out with nothing provided thy observer the notice period
3. Take credit for work at am employer who wants shot of you...
4. Your problem

Bottom line you exit when told or possibly why security escorts you of the premises.
Jimbo: go watch Star Trek reruns during the rest of this evening so you are a happy camper tomorrow morning when sitting at your 100k / year IT helpdesk serving exec's with broken laptops.

Let's be very clear with 4 examples from Switzerland:
1. This is how it normally goes at exec level and I was part of this example myself as I fired the person. He received 12 months above and beyond his notice period and there was zero contractual obligation to do so. His equity also vested. Why? He didn't even ask, the company offered it pro-actively to make sure there'd be no blow up which would upset people.

2. Another one, also a very normal way to do it pro-actively as a company and I have seen this many times in CH as well: we have two options for you... option A is the bare minimum and this is what we'll execute unless you sign option B which gives you more but in return you commit to not sue us, etc.

3. Let's say the company goes with bare minimum. I have coached good friends incl. colleagues informally on how to extract more. First, keep showing up at work until they formally force you to not get access anymore. This is a serious step for a company to take and generally does not look good on them . Then continue to (professionally of course) call customers, colleagues, etc. from home. Makes the company nervous and pissed off but you are not doing anything illegal or unprofessional. After all, you LOVE the company, you LOVE the job, you LOVE being a professional thus giving your best in return for your salary. I have NEVER seen that not result in an offer way beyond the bare minimum. But, you need leverage and need to play it smart.

4. And finally, a case I'll be dealing with soon. Terminating the employment of an exec who has a lot of knowledge of multiple factory closure projects. Damn straight we'll treat him well (despite not performing) because we want him to stay quiet about these projects.

Obviously an IT nerd low in the food chain will have virtually zero leverage and not understand how these games are played at a senior level. And, yes, it's all a game. No hard feelings afterwards. People just doing their job and taking care of their own interests. HR (and low level people) like to think this doesn't happen but it does.

Friend of mine got terminated a year ago. She got a 2 million CHF severance above and beyond her notice period. She got it to a) keep her quiet b) send a signal to other execs that the company takes good care fo people so no reason to stress out.

Jimbo - don't even try to respond you ignorant fool. You'd be surprised at the level of exec's who post on this forum.
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  #32  
Old 09.02.2020, 22:41
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Nope you have not, your posts tell us you are not in their league.
You are not in OUR league. Your post makes THAT explicitly clear.
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  #33  
Old 10.02.2020, 04:36
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Re: Employment lawyers

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Jimbo - don't even try to respond you ignorant fool.
@Redbanner, you may not agree with Jim, and that's fine. After all, fora are, in part, for gaining a range of various perspectives from people of different backgrounds and opinions. You may even think Jim doesn't know anything. That's your right to your point of view.

But please, don't resort to personal insults.
  • They don't benefit or promote any discussion.
  • They don't reflect well on their authors.
  • They end up discouraging some of those users who might otherwise have taken the time and trouble to post useful contributions about the topic.
  • Fora that can avoid and curb personal insults tend to work more constructively and productively (and more helpfully).
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Old 10.02.2020, 10:45
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Re: Employment lawyers

In Geneva there is a free 30 minute consultation service for employment law issues, at Permanence Juridique, https://avocat-conseil-gratuit.ch/

You could start there and should get the basic info you need in the short consultation. Then to decide to take further or not.
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