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  #21  
Old 24.02.2020, 21:39
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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The implication here is that the employer has decided to reduce my salary and paid vacations according to 80% (which is clearly fair), but also reduce my public holidays time-off by the same amount (this, IMHO, is not fair or legal). In essence I am being screwed out of 16 hours, or 2 days of public holiday compensation based on an accounting trick.
No tricks, no unfairness. You're just doing your maths incorrectly.

Which is exactly why employers are able to do this. Do you really think that in a country where it is not unusual to not work 100% no-one has legally challenged what you think is an unfair system? Are we part time workers really that stupid?
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  #22  
Old 24.02.2020, 21:40
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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if a public holiday or sick day occurs on one of my working days, I am only credited 6.4 hours, and not the full 8 I would have worked otherwise.

Is this fair?
Yes, as you are also credited 6.4 hours if it falls on a weekday when you are not working, and everybody gets nothing if it falls on a weekend.

Tom
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  #23  
Old 25.02.2020, 04:06
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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- Paid public holidays: 10 8-hour days = 80 hours

- Paid public holidays: 10 6.4-hour days = 64 hours (scaled by 80%, not fair!)

The implication here is that the employer has decided to reduce my salary and paid vacations according to 80% (which is clearly fair), but also reduce my public holidays time-off by the same amount (this, IMHO, is not fair or legal). In essence I am being screwed out of 16 hours, or 2 days of public holiday compensation based on an accounting trick.
?
80% of 80 hours is 64 hours, no?

if you decide to compensate for your over hours by taking a Tuesday off, you’d be reducing your accumulated over hours by 6,4 hours instead of 8 hours. So where are you being screwed?
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  #24  
Old 23.04.2020, 13:24
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

so, is there a link to the specific employment law that discusses this issue (sick leave for part-time employment)?


let's say, the employee is employed at 80%, and works 100% for Monday-Thursday, and 0% for Friday.



- for non-work days (vacation, holiday, sick day) on Mo-Th, employee loses 20% time per day.

- for non-work days on Fr, employee gains 80% time.


If Mo-Th + Fr are all working days, or all non-working days, this balances out. Otherwise, one can argue that it balances out statistically in a very long duration.


- But the probability of holidays falling on Fr are not 1/4 of falling on Mo-Th. For Aargau:

-- 2014: 7 on Mo-Th, 3 on Fr
-- 2019: 9 on Mo-Th, 1 on Fr


- Also, deliberately taking vacation only on Fr will cause accumulation of extra time unfair to the employer.


- And sick days, you do not control anyways, but one does not particularly report it if it falls on Fr.
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  #25  
Old 23.04.2020, 14:25
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

OK. When you take a week off for holidays. is it four days or five ?



Or can you take your days off as four days of your allowance ?



Or, for example, if you take off Thur/Fri/Mon/Tue and you still have your Wednesday as non-working days, then is that counted as 6 days of your leave, or four ?
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  #26  
Old 23.04.2020, 16:28
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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OK. When you take a week off for holidays. is it four days or five ?

Or can you take your days off as four days of your allowance ?

Or, for example, if you take off Thur/Fri/Mon/Tue and you still have your Wednesday as non-working days, then is that counted as 6 days of your leave, or four ?
It helps to think in terms of how many hours per week you need in order to hit your percentage.

An average work contract is 42 hrs a week. That equates to 8.4 hours per day if you work full-time. If you work 80%, then you work 33.6 hours per week, which equates to 6.72 hours per day (over 5 days of course). However what most people at a reduced percentage do is not fewer hours per day, but more hours and then one day off.

When you take an entire week off Monday thru Friday, you use 5 days because you don't work any of those 33.6 hours.

Using your example above, with Wednesday not being a working day, you would need still need 33.6 hours each of the two weeks.

Week 1: You work Monday and Tuesday at 8.4 hrs each = 16.8 hrs. You are 2 days short (16.8 hrs) so you take two days of leave for that week.

Week 2: You work Thursday and Friday at 8.4 hrs each = 16.8 hrs. You are two days short (16.8 hrs) so you take two days of leave for that week as well.

Total days needed in your scenario is 4.

Last edited by 3Wishes; 23.04.2020 at 16:29. Reason: had an extra hrs in there
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  #27  
Old 23.04.2020, 18:50
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

well, for 80%-employment,


- if you record your actual practice of working, which is 4x100%-day model, there are no problems:
-- Mo-Th: 100% (8.4h) per day
-- Fr: 0%. Consider this equivalent to weekend. There is no effect at all, if there is a public holiday. And you do not report sick day. And since it is an off day, you cannot have a vacation on this day.
-- You are entitled to only 80% of the annual vacation days, so, instead of N 80%-days, you get Nx80% 100%-days.


- but the company uses the 5x80%-day model:
-- Mo-Th + Fr: 80% (6.72h) per day, which is executed by working 6.72/4=1.68 h extra for Mo-Th to compensate Fr.
-- You are entitled to all of annual vacation days, which are N 80%-days.

-- In this case, Fr is a work day, so:
---- if holiday, expected work time is 0 instead of 6.72, so, if you worked as usual on Mo-Th, you suddenly have 6.72h overtime.
---- if sick day, you need to report it, and if you worked as usual on Mo-Th, you will get 6.72h overtime.
---- if vacation, you need to report it, and if you worked as usual on Mo-Th, you will get 6.72h overtime. And you will subtract 1 80%-day from your vacation account.
-- Mo-Th are work days, too, so:
---- exactly the same situation as Fr, but instead, you get -1.68h, meaning you have to work extra to compensate.
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  #28  
Old 23.04.2020, 19:59
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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...
---- if sick day, you need to report it, and if you worked as usual on Mo-Th, you will get 6.72h overtime...
I wonder if that varies depending on employer. If I don't normally work on Friday, I can't turn in a sick note for that day and essentially earn overtime for the days I previously worked.
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  #29  
Old 24.04.2020, 13:04
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

What does your contract say? If it doesn't mention that workdays will be mon-thu it seems fair to assume mon-fri, but that must be applied consistently, including sick days on friday.
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  #30  
Old 24.04.2020, 14:18
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

the contract only mentions 80%, but it is verbally agreed to work mo-th, and take off fr.
the problem is 'the time management software supports 5x80% model'
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  #31  
Old 26.04.2020, 16:13
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Re: Working 80% and time-off calculations

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if a public holiday or sick day occurs on one of my working days, I am only credited 6.4 hours, and not the full 8 I would have worked otherwise.

Is this fair?
Yes, as long as the decision to work 8 hours on Mondays is not formalized in the contract. Usually it is not, the contract just gives a number of hours, and it's up to the employed to discuss with the manager how to distribute the hours within the week.
In other words, your time-tracking software does not match your personal organization but matches the general rules of employment.

From a legal point of view I think your situation is similar to someone I knew who used to work 12 hours on Mondays (+4) to get Friday afternoon off (-4). Was he entitled to 12 hours of vacation when Monday was a holiday? Of course not, the manager knew and verbally agreed to his custom schedule, but it was not what the contract said (42 h/week, period). When that happened, he had normal holiday on Monday and worked full-day on Friday.
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