Go Back   English Forum Switzerland > Help & tips > Employment  
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 01.05.2020, 00:29
gata's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Geneva
Posts: 3,864
Groaned at 67 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 3,596 Times in 1,690 Posts
gata has a reputation beyond reputegata has a reputation beyond reputegata has a reputation beyond reputegata has a reputation beyond reputegata has a reputation beyond reputegata has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
Before even considering paying anything back to the employer, I would first contact the AHV office, as linked to by squeezethecroc in post 2, above.

Your wife should ask there whether she was properly registered and whether the employer paid in the proper contributions to the social security, in what amounts on what dates. With that, she will see whether those numbers tally with what is being required by the employer. If they simply forgot to make the proper deductions off here wages then, yes, she would need to refund them.

If the AHV office has no proof, it could perhaps means that the employer is crooked, but it could simply mean that there's been a delay in the registration process, the more so because of corona. In that case, write back to the employer asking for them for the letter from the AHV confirming that they have registered the employee, and the information they sent to the AHV to pay in her contributions. Once it is all registered and done properly, then refund the amounts to the employer.

It is worth an employee's checking with the AHV, because the confirmation of these contributions is used, later, to calculate one's old age (and if need be disability pension or orphans' pensions), and so an employee should try to avoid gaps.
That. My feeling is that they never registered her and now they are using this excuse to get money off her.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank gata for this useful post:
  #22  
Old 01.05.2020, 01:05
kri's Avatar
kri kri is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,816
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,552 Times in 801 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

OP did your wife get a salary letter or just the money? How much was the hourly salary?

I don't know people, you all think they want to fool the wife, I believe there is more to the story.

After the trial period they obviously paid without issues and then are claiming back what they need to by law.

If they wanted to fool or whatever they could have not paid in the first place.

It seems to me far fetched that they are sitting there thinking about scamming the OP.

To me the clauses mentioned as "unreasonable" are not even that unreasonable but obviously will depend on how expectations were set and what salary is being paid.
Reply With Quote
The following 2 users would like to thank kri for this useful post:
  #23  
Old 01.05.2020, 08:08
robBob's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Zurich
Posts: 2,865
Groaned at 62 Times in 48 Posts
Thanked 2,755 Times in 1,470 Posts
robBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond reputerobBob has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Basically it's considered a side job (German: Nebenerwerb) and there is a section in the tax deceleration for it to also calculate and include the social security deduction in your tax payment. However, with any earnings less then 2300 the deduction is optional and the employee is free to choose .
If the employer insists on doing the deductions, which will protect them legally and is understandable, then they have to send a salary statement, for the tax declaration, listing the deductions by the end of the year.
https://www.ch.ch/en/declaring-supplementary-income/
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank robBob for this useful post:
  #24  
Old 01.05.2020, 09:04
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 19
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Johnah has no particular reputation at present
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
Unpleasant situation to be in. May I ask, are you both EU, and both have the correct work permits?
We are not EU, but we have C permits. So, everything in order there.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Johnah for this useful post:
  #25  
Old 01.05.2020, 09:10
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 19
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Johnah has no particular reputation at present
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
OP did your wife get a salary letter or just the money? How much was the hourly salary?
She received a salary letter, 'Lohnabrechnung', with all the standard information. In this respect it seems that everything is in order. We will just ask the AHV if they registered her properly.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Johnah for this useful post:
  #26  
Old 01.05.2020, 09:35
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
However, with any earnings less then 2300 the deduction is optional and the employee is free to choose . ]
So wrong. It was a Babysitting job, employed by the family themselves. So called "domestic work". In that case social security must always be paid. Even if the annual salary is less than CHF 2300.
See https://www.ahv-iv.ch/p/2.06.e

Last edited by aSwissInTheUS; 01.05.2020 at 10:58.
Reply With Quote
The following 4 users would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #27  
Old 01.05.2020, 10:56
kri's Avatar
kri kri is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,816
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,552 Times in 801 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
She received a salary letter, 'Lohnabrechnung', with all the standard information. In this respect it seems that everything is in order. We will just ask the AHV if they registered her properly.
Ok so the letter should have stated the gross salary, the deduction and the nett salary paid. Did they pay a nett salary that was higher and are now asking for the money back?

Is this the situation? Maybe a bit more forthcoming would help versus giving information bit by bit and letting us do all the questions.

If so, you have to pay it back. Then if the employer does not pay it to AHV you can open a procedure against them.

But you cannot not pay it back.

K
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank kri for this useful post:
  #28  
Old 01.05.2020, 10:59
kri's Avatar
kri kri is offline
Forum Veteran
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 1,816
Groaned at 18 Times in 17 Posts
Thanked 1,552 Times in 801 Posts
kri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond reputekri has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
Basically it's considered a side job (German: Nebenerwerb) and there is a section in the tax deceleration for it
Why is it a side job? This was the wife's main job, just it lasted a few weeks as it never went beyond trial period.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank kri for this useful post:
  #29  
Old 01.05.2020, 13:04
Newbie 1st class
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Switzerland
Posts: 19
Groaned at 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thanked 19 Times in 15 Posts
Johnah has no particular reputation at present
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
Ok so the letter should have stated the gross salary, the deduction and the nett salary paid. Did they pay a nett salary that was higher and are now asking for the money back?

Is this the situation? Maybe a bit more forthcoming would help versus giving information bit by bit and letting us do all the questions.

If so, you have to pay it back. Then if the employer does not pay it to AHV you can open a procedure against them.

But you cannot not pay it back.

K
Correct.

They agreed verbally on the hourly salary without discussing deductions. Then at the end of the test period they paid my wife the sum of the worked hours. No letter was given then.

Then, weeks later we received the "Lohnabrechnung" where the amount paid is stated as "Bruttolohn", then the deductions are written below and then the nett amount at the end, which is less than the amount received, of course.

So, according with all your information, we will pay the deductions back and then we will ask AHV if everything was done correctly on their end.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank Johnah for this useful post:
  #30  
Old 01.05.2020, 13:52
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
So, according with all your information, we will pay the deductions back and then we will ask AHV if everything was done correctly on their end.
Correct. The agreed salary is always gros. If gross was paid even when social security contributions must have been deducted you must unfortunately pay back your share of the deductions. Regardless if you have been paid too much by mistake or incompetence.

Also check that all mandatory deductions are made. As said there is normally also a 5% tax at source part which has to be paid.

Be aware that it takes some time till the contribution show up on your AHV/OASI statement. This might be only beginning next year, as the employer has till December to report.

See here https://www.ahv-iv.ch/en/Leaflets-fo...vidual-account how you can get a statement of your AHV/OASI account.
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
  #31  
Old 01.05.2020, 14:02
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,871
Groaned at 88 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 11,884 Times in 4,829 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
As said there is normally also a 5% tax at source part which has to be paid.
I disagree with this part.

It is true only if the employer chose the so-called (and I say so-called because I believe it to be a misnomer) "Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren".

As I see it, for an employer, it is less work not to be bothered, at all, with Quellensteuer. It's just one more administrative step, and that takes time and effort, and time is money. This is one of the reasons why so many jobs are advertised as being for people who are "CH or C" only.

This particular employee has a C-permit and therefore deals with her own tax and tax form.

Even so, OP, aSwissInTheUS is correct that an employer may choose this route, and so you should check the paperwork so you understand what has been deducted. If the employer did choose the "Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren", then your wife, too, will have to deal with the extra administrative step when you and she fill out your tax form.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #32  
Old 01.05.2020, 14:04
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: ZH
Posts: 7,871
Groaned at 88 Times in 69 Posts
Thanked 11,884 Times in 4,829 Posts
doropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond reputedoropfiz has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Another item on the pay-slip should be holiday pay. This must be shown separately from the hourly wage.
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank doropfiz for this useful post:
  #33  
Old 01.05.2020, 14:35
aSwissInTheUS's Avatar
Forum Legend
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Zurich area
Posts: 12,783
Groaned at 99 Times in 88 Posts
Thanked 19,576 Times in 8,681 Posts
aSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond reputeaSwissInTheUS has a reputation beyond repute
Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Quote:
View Post
I disagree with this part.

It is true only if the employer chose the so-called (and I say so-called because I believe it to be a misnomer) "Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren".
Tax at source in the "Vereinfachte Abrechnungsverfahren" is also due for C permit holders and Swiss.
https://www.seco.admin.ch/seco/de/ho.../Vorteile.html

It is not a misnomer as it really simplified and less paper work in contrast to the normal procedure. A private individual will normally use the simplified procedure. Nevertheless, a private individual can also use the normal procedure with extra paperwork and formalities. In case of the regular procedure you are right, tax at source has not be paid for C permit holders and Swiss.

Is just have seen: If the employer uses the simplified procedure, you will get the annual salary statement for tax purposes (Lohnausweis) from the cantons social security office.
https://awa.zh.ch/internet/volkswirt...verfahren.html
If the employer uses the regular procedure the employer must give you the annual salary statement for tax purposes (Lohnausweis).
__________________
On Hiatus- Normal operation will resume 22.02.2022 22:02:20.22
Reply With Quote
This user would like to thank aSwissInTheUS for this useful post:
Reply




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
resign before signing the new contract RandomForest Employment 15 24.10.2014 13:21
Fee for not signing a rental contract hallolife Housing in general 6 09.09.2013 11:12
Don't signing the contract, must I still pay something for the company? msolis Housing in general 1 09.11.2010 22:09
signing contract in english marincica Housing in general 1 28.10.2009 05:13
Time before signing a contract 81joe81 Housing in general 10 11.02.2009 09:50


All times are GMT +2. The time now is 04:28.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
LinkBacks Enabled by vBSEO 3.1.0