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Old 29.04.2020, 15:06
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Deductions requested without signing contract

Hi all,

I have a particular question which I could not answer by reading other posts.

Here is the situation. My wife was offered a job as a babysitter. The agreement was that she would work for some weeks as a test and if both sides were pleased, a contract would be signed from then on to make it official.

My wife was very happy and enthusiast. But the time for signing the contract came and surprisingly, it was basically a slavery agreement. There were many clauses that were not agreed verbally at the beginning of the test period. My wife had to agree to cook for the kid, fill out every day an "activity log" of what was done with the kid in hourly basis, clean the house, etc. My personal favorite was: "Such other activities the the employer may require". They wanted a butler with a minimum babysitter salary.

Of course, my wife did not sign it, she received the money owned for the worked time and wish them good luck (they will need it to find such a slave in Switzerland!)

But then, after some days we received by mail a bill from these guys requesting my wife to pay them back the social deductions from the worked time: AHV/IV/EO (5.275%), ALV (1.1%), NBU (1.503%).

My question to you experts in this forum is: Is this valid? Can they charge social deductions for a job done without contract or written agreement? How do we know that the percentages are correct? How do we know that they will really pay these deductions to the authorities? Shall we pay or send them back from where they come?

Thanks a lot in advance for your kind answers.
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Old 29.04.2020, 16:03
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

AHV/IV is normally deducted from gross pay, so it seems confusing why the ex-employer thinks they can claim it back.

You could contact babysitting24 and ask for advice https://babysitting24.ch/en/feedback_message/new
or you could contact your AHV/IV office https://www.ahv-iv.ch/en/Contacts/Ca...sation-offices

You'll find a sample contract here https://www.familienplattform-ostsch...der/dokumente/ (at the bottom of the page, in English) if you want to compare it to the ex-employer's one.
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Old 30.04.2020, 09:35
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Thanks a lot for you message squeezethecroc.

Does anybody else has more information? It would be highly appreciated
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Old 30.04.2020, 09:40
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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Hi all,

But then, after some days we received by mail a bill from these guys requesting my wife to pay them back the social deductions from the worked time: AHV/IV/EO (5.275%), ALV (1.1%), NBU (1.503%).

My question to you experts in this forum is: Is this valid? Can they charge social deductions for a job done without contract or written agreement? How do we know that the percentages are correct? How do we know that they will really pay these deductions to the authorities? Shall we pay or send them back from where they come?

Thanks a lot in advance for your kind answers.
The contract was oral, both sides agreed to it and your wife executed it by working there.

If they paid her and forgot to do the deductions, then yes, they can request the money from the employee as it is a payroll error.

I am pleased they paid her legally, i was already wondering if the trial period was black money. They will also be paying their employer share, so not sure about the rest but they seem very straight in their ways of doing things.

K
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Old 30.04.2020, 09:55
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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AHV/IV is normally deducted from gross pay, so it seems confusing why the ex-employer thinks they can claim it back.
Wages agreed are also gross. If the full gross amount was paid out then a mistake was made.

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If they paid her and forgot to do the deductions, then yes, they can request the money from the employee as it is a payroll error.
This. There are stories on EF where this happened even in big companies.
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Old 30.04.2020, 12:02
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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But then, after some days we received by mail a bill from these guys requesting my wife to pay them back the social deductions from the worked time: AHV/IV/EO (5.275%), ALV (1.1%), NBU (1.503%).
I read this as that the employer has made the deductions already and is wanting Ms Johnah to reimburse them.

Like they're claiming now she was self-employed and not employed by them. They seem fairly dodgy, given the contract, so I wouldn't be surprised.
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Old 30.04.2020, 12:29
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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I read this as that the employer has made the deductions already and is wanting Ms Johnah to reimburse them.

Like they're claiming now she was self-employed and not employed by them. They seem fairly dodgy, given the contract, so I wouldn't be surprised.
In that case the numbers/percentages would have to be doubled.

It is just wild guessing w/o knowing what gross salary was agreed on and what "net" salary was paid out. Interestingly, the 5% tax at source is missing.
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Old 30.04.2020, 14:38
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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I read this as that the employer has made the deductions already and is wanting Ms Johnah to reimburse them.

Like they're claiming now she was self-employed and not employed by them. They seem fairly dodgy, given the contract, so I wouldn't be surprised.
OP can you clear this up?

Option A) the amounts you mentioned were already deducted and now they want more?
Option B) your wife was paid the full amount agreed without those deductions?

Tx
K
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Old 30.04.2020, 14:42
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Before even considering paying anything back to the employer, I would first contact the AHV office, as linked to by squeezethecroc in post 2, above.

Your wife should ask there whether she was properly registered and whether the employer paid in the proper contributions to the social security, in what amounts on what dates. With that, she will see whether those numbers tally with what is being required by the employer. If they simply forgot to make the proper deductions off here wages then, yes, she would need to refund them.

If the AHV office has no proof, it could perhaps means that the employer is crooked, but it could simply mean that there's been a delay in the registration process, the more so because of corona. In that case, write back to the employer asking for them for the letter from the AHV confirming that they have registered the employee, and the information they sent to the AHV to pay in her contributions. Once it is all registered and done properly, then refund the amounts to the employer.

It is worth an employee's checking with the AHV, because the confirmation of these contributions is used, later, to calculate one's old age (and if need be disability pension or orphans' pensions), and so an employee should try to avoid gaps.
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Old 30.04.2020, 14:42
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

I would ask them to provide a proper salary statement for the hours already worked and the deductions and tax paid.


Take that with a copy of the supposed 'contract' and any other documentation.



Very likely the whole situation was dodgy. Was it paid via a salary system (eg. Quitt) or cash-in-hand ?



AHV is payable for any work done in the home.
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Old 30.04.2020, 14:46
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

What I wrote in Post 9 does not apply to NBU. This stands for Nichtberufsunfallversicherung, and covers accidents had outside of work.

Every employee who works, on average, 8 hours or more per week, for the same employer, must have such cover. It must be taken out by the employer, but with an insurance company (e.g. Mobiliar) , not at the AHV. The premium is shared by the employer and the employee.

If the employee works for less than 8 hours, only BU (Berufsunfallversicherung) i.e. accidents at work, are covered, and in that case the employer covers the full cost of this insurance.
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Old 30.04.2020, 14:50
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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Interestingly, the 5% tax at source is missing.
Source tax (Quellensteuer) does not have to be paid if the employee, or the employee's spouse, has a C-permit, or is Swiss.

In all other cases, yes, the employer must deduct this tax from the wages, and must pay it to the relevant income tax office. And in this, too, the employee has a right to a letter from the employer confirming how and when this was done.
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Old 30.04.2020, 15:22
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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Source tax (Quellensteuer) does not have to be paid if the employee, or the employee's spouse, has a C-permit, or is Swiss.
The 5% tax at source ha also to be paid by Swiss and C-Permit holders.

It applies to domestic workers (Hausangestellte) and the simplified social security reporting (Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren).
https://www.svazurich.ch/hausangestellte
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Old 30.04.2020, 15:38
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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The 5% tax at source ha also to be paid by Swiss and C-Permit holders.

It applies to domestic workers (Hausangestellte) and the simplified social security reporting (Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren).
https://www.svazurich.ch/hausangestellte
Yes, that seems to be so for those employers working within the procedure to which you linked. I did not know that.

However, as I understand it, that oddity is specific only to those electing the "Vereinfachtes Abrechnungsverfahren". That procedure is, however, not compulsory, and many employers do not choose that route.
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Old 30.04.2020, 16:42
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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Before even considering paying anything back to the employer, I would first contact the AHV office, as linked to by squeezethecroc in post 2, above.

Your wife should ask there whether she was properly registered and whether the employer paid in the proper contributions to the social security, in what amounts on what dates. With that, she will see whether those numbers tally with what is being required by the employer. If they simply forgot to make the proper deductions off here wages then, yes, she would need to refund them.

If the AHV office has no proof, it could perhaps means that the employer is crooked, but it could simply mean that there's been a delay in the registration process, the more so because of corona. In that case, write back to the employer asking for them for the letter from the AHV confirming that they have registered the employee, and the information they sent to the AHV to pay in her contributions. Once it is all registered and done properly, then refund the amounts to the employer.

It is worth an employee's checking with the AHV, because the confirmation of these contributions is used, later, to calculate one's old age (and if need be disability pension or orphans' pensions), and so an employee should try to avoid gaps.
This contribution can be made after - we typically did our payment to the AHV in March of year X for the whole year x-1. So the fact that the AHV Office has no record does not mean it will not be paid.

It's also a different issue.

K
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Old 30.04.2020, 17:16
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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OP can you clear this up?

Option A) the amounts you mentioned were already deducted and now they want more?
Option B) your wife was paid the full amount agreed without those deductions?

Tx
K
It was option B. They pay gross and now they are asking us to pay back the deductions.
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Old 30.04.2020, 17:58
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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This contribution can be made after - we typically did our payment to the AHV in March of year X for the whole year x-1. So the fact that the AHV Office has no record does not mean it will not be paid.

It's also a different issue.

K

Yes, that can be that the actual payments are made later, by the employer. Even so, the employer must register the employee with the AHV right away, upon employing them (in OP's wife's case, this occurred upon their verbal agreeement).
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Old 30.04.2020, 18:00
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

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It was option B. They pay gross and now they are asking us to pay back the deductions.
Then I agree with Swisspea's advice in Post 10 above. Your wife should ask the employer for the proper documentation setting out wages and deductions, (and holiday pay, though it'll be very little, given that she wasn't there long), such that she can do the caculation herself. Then verify with the AHV that she was registered.
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Old 30.04.2020, 18:07
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

Unpleasant situation to be in. May I ask, are you both EU, and both have the correct work permits?
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Old 30.04.2020, 21:02
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Re: Deductions requested without signing contract

I'm also curious to know the hourly pay rate. If it was anything below 20chf, I would tell the 'employer' to suck it up.



My cleaner clears 30-35chf/hour. And that's properly registered after deductions.
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